The International Association of Amateur Heralds

Artistically speaking, if you go with the third option (i.e., sans drops), I'd suggest extending the vertical nail further down the shield. Heraldicly speaking it'd be seen as laying over all, but visually it'd add dimension to the hill and make Christ's cross rest in the foreground and the two thieves' crosses in the background. If you go with a more steep mount, then the two thieves' crosses would naturally be less prominent as they are on the downslope. I guess these are more artistic considerations than heraldic... so maybe it's a bit premature, but always good to keep such things in mind.

I suspect that "There Is a Green Hill Far Away" is not the first hymn that members of Passion Hill would think of in this connection

Can't think why not.

Chris Green wrote:

I suspect that "There Is a Green Hill Far Away" is not the first hymn that members of Passion Hill would think of in this connection

Can't think why not.

Well, judging from its "Statement of Faith," <http://redemptionhillmodesto.com/statement-of-faith>, Redemption Hill (and sorry for botching the name in my last post) appears to be a rather fundamentalist, Calvinist, evangelical congregation. Having grown up half Presbyterian and half Southern Baptist, I'd guess based on personal experience that the two hymns most likely to occur to an evangelical, fundamentalist American Protestant in connection with Calvary are, first, "The Old Rugged Cross" (in which the hill is far away, but not specifically green) and second, "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross."

"There is a Green Hill" seems a bit more Anglican/Episcopal, although it may well appear in the hymnals of other denominations.

Daniel Gill wrote:Artistically speaking, if you go with the third option (i.e., sans drops), I'd suggest extending the vertical nail further down the shield. Heraldicly speaking it'd be seen as laying over all, but visually it'd add dimension to the hill and make Christ's cross rest in the foreground and the two thieves' crosses in the background. If you go with a more steep mount, then the two thieves' crosses would naturally be less prominent as they are on the downslope. I guess these are more artistic considerations than heraldic... so maybe it's a bit premature, but always good to keep such things in mind.

I agree with all of this.

JMcMillan wrote:

Of the three you showed, I like the third one best. It may be my Tudor-era nerdiness coming out, but I associate the five wounds with Catholicism.

Like I said before, I'm very attached to the sable and sanguine of my first design, so I took the mockup you made and made a few tweaks to reflect some of the later suggestions. I also found a different nail cross (which I actually like a lot) that made it easier to move it further down the hill and fit it between the other two crosses.



My sister's asleep right now, so I'll ask her what she thinks later.

"There is a Green Hill" seems a bit more Anglican/Episcopal, although it may well appear in the hymnals of other denominations.

My only reason for mentioning "There is a Green Hill" was that, to my knowledge, it is the only hymn that mentions a colour in connection with Calvary. Black hills conjure up, for me at least: "Take me back to the black hills, the black hills of Dakota" which while a good song conjures up the wrong images (Doris Day/Calamity Jane).

I was pondering suggesting removing the hill completely, but given the name of the church that would be a step too far. If anything else is to be included however, the bordure must certainly go, as Robyn has done in the two latest versions. While the thieves' crosses could hardly be faulted theologically, aesthetically I have my doubts. The nail-cross on the hill simply says it all.

Chris Green wrote:While the thieves' crosses could hardly be faulted theologically, aesthetically I have my doubts. The nail-cross on the hill simply says it all.

I think you're right. The crosses on either side look like either afterthoughts or a strange set of goalposts.

As for the songs, I've never heard of "There is a Green Hill," and while I do know "The Old Rugged Cross" and "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross," I don't think I've sung them in a few years...

So after talking with my sister and my pastor, it got a little frustrating for a bit. Ultimately, I'm going to go with what my pastor likes, as it's for the church, but having to explain to my artist sister how heraldry works and why it doesn't matter what the cross or the hill look like in the images because all we're trying to settle on is a blazon was like explaining heraldry to a brick wall.

Nothing really concrete from my pastor, but that's my own fault for halfway-ambushing him after the service on Sunday. Hopfeully I can get more input from him later this week.

And since we talked about the thieves' crosses being almost superfluous, here's the design without them. I was going to try changing the hill to sable, but my pastor did say he likes the green hill.

explaining heraldry to a brick wall

At least when you explain heraldry to a brick wall it doesn't adopt a glazed expression, shrug its shoulders and say "whatever" !

While I like the simplicity of the new design I just wonder if there isn't too much argent. Thinking practically, when is the CoA likely to be used? If it is to be used on, for example, headed notepaper, or a news-sheet, the chances are the paper will be white. If so the CoA will largely be lost in its surroundings. Some form of bordure as in your original design would avoid that problem.

You are getting there, but perhaps a few more ideas are needed.

I think this looks nice, but I'd make one more pitch for the nails to be Gules instead of Sanguine.