Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Is it legal? Does it matter? Discuss it here.
Jonathan Webster
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Jonathan Webster » 20 Feb 2013, 23:20

Ah! Found it, it's was Sir Woodbine Parish K.C.H., consul general, who negotiated the treaty that first recognised Argentina's independent status.

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Chris Green
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Chris Green » 21 Feb 2013, 06:49

An interesting man Woodbine Parish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodbine_Parish

http://archive.org/stream/lifeofsirwoodbin00hilliala#page/n7/mode/2up

(pp 373-374 and 441 of the latter are relevant)

For some reason he was made a Knight Commander of the Royal Guelphic Hanoverian Order (1837) by King William IV rather than a KCMG, which would have been usual for an officer of HM Diplomatic Service. It may be that there was opposition to his knighthood in high places (he had "only" been Consul-General in Buenos Aires - number two in the Embassy) and the King was using his Hanoverian Order to get round the Foreign Office protocol.
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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Arthur Radburn » 21 Feb 2013, 08:50

Chris Green wrote:For some reason he was made a Knight Commander of the Royal Guelphic Hanoverian Order (1837) by King William IV rather than a KCMG, which would have been usual for an officer of HM Diplomatic Service. It may be that there was opposition to his knighthood in high places (he had "only" been Consul-General in Buenos Aires - number two in the Embassy) and the King was using his Hanoverian Order to get round the Foreign Office protocol.

Or that, In William IV's time, the Order of St Michael & St George was still for services connected with the Ionian Islands, rather than for overseas service in general. The Order of the Bath, might have been too high-ranking, leaving the Hanoverian Order as the only alternative.
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Chris Green
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Chris Green » 21 Feb 2013, 09:05

Or that, In William IV's time, the Order of St Michael & St George was still for services connected with the Ionian Islands, rather than for overseas service in general.

True enough. It wasn't until 1868 that the Order was extended to those who "hold high and confidential offices within Her Majesty's colonial possessions, and in reward for services rendered to the Crown in relation to the foreign affairs of the Empire."

The Order of the Bath, might have been too high-ranking, leaving the Hanoverian Order as the only alternative.

Or a Knight Bachelor of course.
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Chris Green
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Chris Green » 21 Feb 2013, 09:26

It may be that there was opposition to [Woodbine Parish's] knighthood in high places


Reading on to p 379, in 1851 Parish wrote in a letter "With respect to Lord Palmerston, I dare say he would, as you say, gladly see a settlement come to during his rule at the Foreign Office; but he would prefer to see almost anybody else [than Parish] employed as the Agent to effect it."

I foolishly omitted to note earlier that the cover of the book about his life has an impression of his CoA encircled by the KCH. This does not however seem to have the augmentation of Argentina - unless it is the indistinct chief.

The question is: which Argentine CoA was intended? The sun in splendour? The cap of liberty on a pike?
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Iain Boyd
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Iain Boyd » 21 Feb 2013, 10:27

Dear Chris,

The chief of the arms on the cover is quite clearly a 'sun in splendour' - possibly or on azure.

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Jonathan Webster
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Jonathan Webster » 21 Feb 2013, 10:59

This was during the period when Argentina was a loose confederation of semi-autonomous states, albeit at this time the state of Buenos Aires and its governor were beginning to assert dominance over the whole country.

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Chris Green
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Chris Green » 21 Feb 2013, 11:18

The chief of the arms on the cover is quite clearly a 'sun in splendour' - possibly or on azure.


You are quite right. I have now discovered how to enlarge the picture.
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Jonathan Webster
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Jonathan Webster » 21 Feb 2013, 19:53

Another thing that strikes me about registering Arms in more than one jurisdiction is the differing systems (or lack) of cadency in the respective jurisdictions. Say I have a daughter, my firstborn; and a son, her younger brother. Say I recieve a grant from the College of Arms in London, and late(for whatever reason)recieve a grant of the same arms from the Chief Herald ofIreland. My son would bear my armis differenced by a label of three points in England, and my daughter would bear my arms undifferenced on a lozenge. But in Eire, she as my firstborn would bear my arms differenced by a three-point label, and my son, a crescent.


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