Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Is it legal? Does it matter? Discuss it here.
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Jeremy Kudlick
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Jeremy Kudlick » 12 Sep 2012, 19:08

Martin Goldstraw wrote:
Arthur Radburn wrote: //snip// and then cancelled his SA registration.


Interesting, it never occurred to me that a registration could be cancelled (or that anyone would wish to do so).

There is a provision (Section 22 of the Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006) for the Chief Herald of Ireland to revoke a grant of arms if it is determined the documentation originally submitted was insufficient or fraudulent. I'm not sure if it has ever been done, but the provision is there.
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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Arthur Radburn » 12 Sep 2012, 22:01

Jeremy Kudlick wrote:There is a provision (Section 22 of the Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006) for the Chief Herald of Ireland to revoke a grant of arms if it is determined the documentation originally submitted was insufficient or fraudulent. I'm not sure if it has ever been done, but the provision is there.

That Bill never became law, though. It was a private measure, promoted by the Irish genealogical society, and although they found a senator to introduce it in the legislature for them it was stifled at birth. There is a similar provision in the SA Heraldry Act.

The Chief Herald of Ireland evidently exercises (or has exercised) that power anyway. In the 1990s, he revoked someone's confirmation of ancestral arms after learning that the pedigree submitted to prove descent from the original armiger had been forged.

I recently read of Lord Lyon cancelling a matriculation after it had been proved that the pedigree on which it had been based was incorrect.

I wonder whether the CHI or Lord Lyon, or the CoA or CHA for that matter would cancel a grant or matriculation if the grantee/matriculant himself requested it.
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Jonathan Webster
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Jonathan Webster » 12 Sep 2012, 22:47

Arthur Radburn wrote:
Martin Goldstraw wrote:Interesting, it never occurred to me that a registration could be cancelled (or that anyone would wish to do so).

It's rare, but it does happen. Cancellation is notified in the Government Gazette, but
no reasons are ever published.


Similarly(but for different reasons) The Court of the Lord Lyon will cancel a matriculation if an armiger is found to have behaved in an 'unvirtuous' way or is convicted of a serious crime.

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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Jeremy Kudlick » 12 Sep 2012, 23:43

Arthur Radburn wrote:The Chief Herald of Ireland evidently exercises (or has exercised) that power anyway. In the 1990s, he revoked someone's confirmation of ancestral arms after learning that the pedigree submitted to prove descent from the original armiger had been forged.

MacCarthy Mór? ;)
Arthur Radburn wrote:I wonder whether the CHI or Lord Lyon, or the CoA or CHA for that matter would cancel a grant or matriculation if the grantee/matriculant himself requested it.

That is an interesting query. Since Lord Lyon, the College, and the CHA are effectively acting on behalf of HM as the fount of honour, I would think that it would be rather difficult to request a cancellation of one's own arms in those jurisdictions. As Ireland is a Republic and has no Sovereign, I don't think it would be as difficult. I fail to comprehend why one would go through the trouble of the grant/registration process and then voluntarily throw it all away.
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 13 Sep 2012, 08:20

I am of course aware that grants have been voided and removed from the records of various nations when the petition/application was found to be fraudulent or unfounded but my surprise, in my earlier post, was that anyone would want to voluntarily cancel their own registration!
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Jonathan Webster » 13 Sep 2012, 10:22

As Ireland is a Republic and has no Sovereign, I don't think it would be as difficult. I fail to comprehend why one would go through the trouble of the grant/registration process and then voluntarily throw it all away.


Sorry to nitpick; but for the Republic of Ireland in common with all other republics does have a sovereign (itself; or, more accurately; the Irish people); it's just that the sovereign in this case is not a monarch.

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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Arthur Radburn » 13 Sep 2012, 10:32

Jeremy Kudlick wrote:
Arthur Radburn wrote:The Chief Herald of Ireland evidently exercises (or has exercised) that power anyway. In the 1990s, he revoked someone's confirmation of ancestral arms after learning that the pedigree submitted to prove descent from the original armiger had been forged.

MacCarthy Mór? ;)

I was thinking of one of his associates, the Count of Clandermond : http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy ... ermond.htm

Interestingly, the Count registered his arms at the Bureau of Heraldry before they were revoked in Ireland, and that registration is still in place. One of the anomalies of registering arms in more than one jurisdiction.
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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 13 Sep 2012, 10:50

I didn't think that a person could be deprived of a valid grant except by attainder?

As far as registering arms in more than one jurisdiction, why not? well besides the cost. It is well with in the tradition of heraldry to be jealous of one's arms and prevent as many persons foreign and domestic from using them.

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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Jonathan Webster » 13 Sep 2012, 12:36

That used to be only way someone could be deprived of a title; and in England it was the only way way a man could in any way be deprived of his arms; but it now no longer happens. There is now no procedure in England for a man to either renounce or be deprived of his arms.

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Re: Two arms in right of two different jurisdictions?

Postby Chris Green » 13 Sep 2012, 12:44

As far as registering arms in more than one jurisdiction, why not? well besides the cost. It is well with in the tradition of heraldry to be jealous of one's arms and prevent as many persons foreign and domestic from using them.


Registering the same arms in more than one jurisdiction (especially if one has migrated from the one to the other), is indeed logical, though not strictly necessary. To obtain different arms in jurisdictions with which one has no residential or family connection borders on the eccentric in my view.
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