Marshalling

Is it legal? Does it matter? Discuss it here.
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Marshalling

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 03 Nov 2012, 09:51

Peter Harling wrote:While this is obviously wrong in heraldic practice, I do wonder; this being an image taken from an engraved bookplate; whether due to expense or convenience the engraver or customer has taken the short cut and slotted in the shield of pretense, rather than go to the expense of re cutting a new plate. Just a theory!
Regards ............ Peter


A worthy theory for consideration. If only we could undertake a close and possibly forensic examination of the original plate!
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Chas Charles-Dunne
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Re: Marshalling

Postby Chas Charles-Dunne » 03 Nov 2012, 11:27

Martin Goldstraw wrote:
Peter Harling wrote:While this is obviously wrong in heraldic practice, I do wonder; this being an image taken from an engraved bookplate; whether due to expense or convenience the engraver or customer has taken the short cut and slotted in the shield of pretense, rather than go to the expense of re cutting a new plate. Just a theory!
Regards ............ Peter


A worthy theory for consideration. If only we could undertake a close and possibly forensic examination of the original plate!


I did think about this myself, but don't think it would be either convenient, nor a short cut. From an engineering standpoint there would be the problem of cutting the accurate hole; cutting the arms to fit the hole (or vice versa); ensuring that the inset arms and the original are perfectly flat before melding them together.

If they were not perfectly flat, then either the arms in pretence would print only, or the rest of the arms would print leaving a pretence shaped hole. During the hole cutting process, all it would take was one slip and there would be a gouge that would be printed every time.

I think it would be quicker to engrave a totally new coat, rather than mess around with the original.
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Chas
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Peter Harling
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Re: Marshalling

Postby Peter Harling » 03 Nov 2012, 20:12

Not an easy job, as you say Chas; I have read of instances where this has been done. These engravers were exceptionally talented! In fact they did at times use standard plates incorporating mantling, helmet etc., and 'drop the shield/crest in place' as a time/cost saver. But as I said it is just a theory the original being a bookplate!

Regarding impression and the absolute flatness of the plate. Modern Letterpress machinery does as you say require an absolute flat plate. But the older machinery was much more forgiving ...... one just increased the impression until a suitable result was achieved, if things were really bad the paper was dampened and this usually solved any impression problems.

Regards ......... Peter
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JMcMillan
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Re: Marshalling

Postby JMcMillan » 04 Nov 2012, 04:08

Martin Goldstraw wrote:
JMcMillan wrote:Just because F-D says it...


As someone once observed, Fox-Davies had a habit of stating as fact things he thought logically should be fact, whether or not the practice actually was as he wished it to be.


Which is why I prefaced my response to Chas with "by modern thinking". I have to say though that I have a tendency to agree with those whose own logic mirrors my own and therefore disagree with those who don't so in this instance, as in so many, I find myself agreeing with Fox-Davies. I find no difficulty in reconciling my views with the writings of older armorists as they write what they believe to be the practice and conventions of their day; we move on and conventions change. Since I have yet to see the so called law of arms I must accept that much of what we belive must be down to custom and practice. What was acceptable to earlier generations, as in most things in life, may not be acceptable to this generation. I don't believe that armory should be fossilized. I do believe that, by modern thinking, whilst a continued impalement for a widower may be acceptable, it no longer remains so once remarried; it somehow seems (by modern thinking) inappropriate to marshall the arms of a deceased wife along with those of a present wife. In addition, at a time when a marriage is almost as likely to end by divorce as by death, it is, to my mind at least, most inappropriate to continue to marshall the arms of a divorced wife along with ones own. This view would, I believe, be more logical in the world of today.


Could be, and I don't disagree with the logic. But there's a great deal in the practice of the College of Arms that I find illogical, more so in the past than now, but still. It seems to me that the question at hand is "what is the practice of the College in this matter?" After all, how many times have we benighted colonials been reminded that in England there's such a thing as heraldic regulation (deo gratia), unlike that do-it-yourself chaos that reigns elsewhere. So can this particular area really be a matter of personal preference, or is there in fact one right answer?
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Marshalling

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 04 Nov 2012, 11:27

JMcMillan wrote: So can this particular area really be a matter of personal preference, or is there in fact one right answer?


I'm sure that the College of Arms would probably provide advice if asked (whether for a fee or not is another matter) but as they are probably rarely if ever asked then marshalling of this nature is, if only by default, a matter of personal preference. Which is probably why we see so many errors in marshalled coats.

One such example is the bookplate of Charles Western (Franks # 31362) (Western, quartering Le Gros,impaling Goostrey); the father of Western's bride had no right to the Goostrey arms but Western used them anyway.
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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Marshalling

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 06 Nov 2012, 14:15

That seems to be a problem with heraldry, its rules are derived from practice, but practice is often wrong.


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