Helmet

Is it legal? Does it matter? Discuss it here.
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steven harris
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Re: Helmet

Postby steven harris » 26 Nov 2012, 20:23

Chas Charles-Dunne wrote:
JMcMillan wrote:To clarify a point: while it is true that the English College of Arms will not grant personal arms without a helm and crest, there is absolutely no requirement that an English armiger display the helm in every achievement.

The following are not personal arms, but I wonder when this ruling about personal arms having to be granted with helm and crest was made seeing as late as 1982, a county received a grant without.

I feel that I have seen a more-or-less recent grant made with shield, helm, torse, and motto - but without a crest. Certainly with-crest is by far the norm, but "required"?
Steven A. Harris, Associate Fellow
member since February 2008

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JMcMillan
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Re: Helmet

Postby JMcMillan » 26 Nov 2012, 21:09

I recently had a query offline from someone who had approached the College for a grant wanting only a shield and was told that all personal grants include shield, helm, and crest. Lyon will grant shields alone, or shield and helm without crest. Or so the schedule of fees on his website says.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

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JMcMillan
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Re: Helmet

Postby JMcMillan » 26 Nov 2012, 21:21

The College website doesn't flatly say but certainly implies that the only applicants who can now receive a grant of arms without a crest are parish councils:

As of 1 January 2012 the fees payable upon a personal grant of arms and crest are £4,725, a similar grant to an impersonal but non-profit making body, £10,075, and to a commercial company, £15,000. When a grant of arms includes the grant of a badge or (to eligible grantees) supporters, or the exemplification of a standard, a further fee is payable. A special reduced fee (currently £5,825) has recently been introduced for parish councils, to cover the grant of arms alone, without crest.


I note that the 1982 grant to the Norfolk County Council cited by Chas was not a grant of arms but of supporters to already existing arms. There are many English corporate arms that do not have crests and are never shown with a helm, which is why I specified "personal" in my previous post.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Helmet

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 27 Nov 2012, 00:57

The traditional heraldic helms typically have the face covered, although at the time they did have open faced helmets too. I think also, if you are more innovative, then you have to be a better artist. I like that the helmet isn't specified, because that leaves some freedom. It can symbolize something about the individual, traditionally their rank, but it could symbolize membership in a community or occupation etc. Although, I don't think you are limited to putting crests on traditional helms.

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steven harris
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Re: Helmet

Postby steven harris » 27 Nov 2012, 02:08

JMcMillan wrote:I recently had a query offline from someone who had approached the College for a grant wanting only a shield and was told that all personal grants include shield, helm, and crest. Lyon will grant shields alone, or shield and helm without crest. Or so the schedule of fees on his website says.

Perhaps it was a Scottish grant that I am remembering.
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Jonathan Webster
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Re: Helmet

Postby Jonathan Webster » 06 Dec 2012, 09:45

Whilst I'm all for innovation in heraldry; I don't personally like the use of elements such as parka hoods and motorcycle helmets in arms, not because I'm being an heraldic reactionary; but because it doesn't make sense: an achievement of arms is martial by its very nature. Any achievement of arms will in any case feature a shield after all. Thus I feel like such elements as Maccabean helmets and morions and Stahlhelms to be within the heraldic tradition without ignoring the need for creative and artistic innovation, but elements not connected with the martial origins of heraldry; such as the above mentioned hoods and motorcycle paraphenalia, whilst I am sure they adequetely represent the armiger, I don't think its good heraldry at all.

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Jeremy Kudlick
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Re: Helmet

Postby Jeremy Kudlick » 07 Dec 2012, 02:10

JMcMillan wrote:Lyon will grant shields alone, or shield and helm without crest. Or so the schedule of fees on his website says.

The CHA also has a schedule of fees which itemizes fees for each component for initial design, final artwork, and calligraphy. http://www.gg.ca/pdf/PriceList1-Aug2012.pdf
Jeremy Kudlick
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GJKS
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Re: Helmet

Postby GJKS » 08 Dec 2012, 05:11

[quote="JMcMillan"]The College website doesn't flatly say but certainly implies that the only applicants who can now receive a grant of arms without a crest are parish councils:

... and the personal arms of lady armigers?
Regards,
Geoff

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JMcMillan
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Re: Helmet

Postby JMcMillan » 08 Dec 2012, 15:08

GJKS wrote:
JMcMillan wrote:The College website doesn't flatly say but certainly implies that the only applicants who can now receive a grant of arms without a crest are parish councils:

... and the personal arms of lady armigers?


Yes, of course! Good catch.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

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Edward Hillenbrand
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Re: Helmet

Postby Edward Hillenbrand » 19 Jan 2013, 03:16

The more I think on this, the more trouble I know I am going to get into. As a paramedic I have never worn a tin pot except in jest. My head gear is an American style baseball cap or or a slouch hat (a tri-corn or cowboy at that has seen better days!). Why shouldn't my wyvern have on his (her?) head a rendition of the same? Simply put it is who I am. Is that not the idea of heraldry? While we don't wear tabards at an accident scene this art form that we dedicate so much time to is our view of ourselves. My hat is as much a part of me as my arms are. I have worn the same hat for over 20 (damn I'm old!) years. It has gone through Scouting, mini- MCIs, and a few hurricanes. If the weather is nasty and we are called out, the local police wouldn't recognize me without the water streaming off of my hat!
Ed Hillenbrand

"Memento te esse Mortalum"

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