DARs completed in 2016

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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: DARs completed in 2016

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 19 Sep 2016, 10:50

It is commendable that the IAAH does take steps to at least attempt to ascertain whether a proposed design might be similar to that of an existing achievement but don't lets kid ourselves that the heraldic authorities take equal care.

http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/weblog/ ... al-enigma/

http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/weblog/ ... al-enigma/
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Re: DARs completed in 2016

Postby Chris Green » 19 Sep 2016, 11:19

The examples given by Martin show, on the face of it, callous disregard by one heraldic authority for the rights and privileges of armigers who come under the authority of another heraldic authority. I suspect that the two Scottish grantees would kick up an almighty fuss if their English "twins" moved to Scotland and started to use their English arms there. And who would Lord Lyon back then pray?

The situation as regards arms designed by the IAAH is completely different. Our DAR team will use their best endeavours (no spell check it isn't endeavors!) to avoid replicating existing arms, but we are not an heraldic authority. We encourage our clients to make the designs they have obtained the basis for discussion with heraldic authorities should they wish to obtain a grant of arms. But if, say, the College of Arms should say: "Sorry Mr John Smyth, but nice as that design may be, you can't use it,as arms virtually identical were granted to an unrelated Sir J Smith a hundred years ago" our J Smith cannot argue that it must be OK since he has an IAAH certificate to prove it.
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Re: DARs completed in 2016

Postby Terry Baldwin » 20 Sep 2016, 02:20

Just for discussions such, since I now have a position where such things may come to pass, what if Mr. Smyth comes back to us saying the College rejected his/our design. Would we be in the hit or miss position of just making changes to the original design (hopefully looking at Papworth or some other resources) and having Mr. Smyth to then resubmit the altered design(s) until the College accepts one. Since I have Papworth, I would be checking anything that looked "plain" enough to perhaps be listed. I am also going to give the internet sources a look just to be on the safe side. I am aware that it would be a modest check, but at least within our resources.

I am also wondering, from a bookkeeping stand point, if each should be treated as a completed design? or if the roll should be altered to only reflect the final result.

Be nice to have the situation thought about before it actually happens.
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Re: DARs completed in 2016

Postby Chris Green » 20 Sep 2016, 06:38

From the IAAH's point of view, each design is complete when the certificate is issued. If a former client uses that completed design as the starting point for discussing a grant of arms by the College of Arms (or mutatis mutandis any heraldic authority) he will then have become their client and have paid their, not inconsiderable, fees. The Herald will explain why the IAAH design is unacceptable, and no doubt in the case of the "Smyth/Smith" example I gave earlier enquire why the client believes that he may be entitled to those arms or a variation of them. What the Herald will not do is suggest that the client go back to the IAAH and have us try again. He will (just as our amateur heralds do) extract from the client what elements he or she wants, whether there is an established link to an armigerous family, etc and use that information to craft a design which the College of Arms considers to be unique (N.B. not necessarily unique - Q.V. Martin's examples of "non-unique" arms granted by Lord Lyon).

For the client to come back to the IAAH once he has engaged the services of an heraldic authority is not really a starter, though I suppose one might conceivably come back and say: "Your design didn't meet with the College's approval, and they are suggesting X and Y instead; what do you think?". I have to say however that I cannot imagine any official Herald, if he learned of our further involvement, being much enamoured of having his advice second-guessed by the IAAH!

All the foregoing is my personal opinion and not official IAAH policy.
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Re: DARs completed in 2016

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 20 Sep 2016, 09:49

I have a feeling that, at least in the case of the two UK authorities, they aren't very keen on granting arms which have previously been assumed and, although they may take said arms as a basis for discussion, I strongly believe that, almost out of principle, the final design will be different/diffferenced from the original. Registering authorities, such as South Africa, will likely take a more sympathetic view as they are simply registering arms. I still haven't figured out Canada so don't feel remotely qualified to comment.
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Re: DARs completed in 2016

Postby Chris Green » 20 Sep 2016, 10:08

I don't disagree with Martin's feeling that neither of the British authorities may be keen on granting arms that have previously been assumed (and - in their eyes - used irregularly). However what I was endeavouring to propound previously was the situation where a client of our DAR service specifically took the IAAH design certificate to the College and said that he wanted a grant of arms and this is the design he would like. He did not assume the arms, he used the DAR service to provide the College with his preferred design.

When I sought a grant of arms back in 1983 there was no IAAH DAR service to help me, so I designed what I thought would be a suitable CoA and took that to the College. The then York, Conrad Swan, said words to the effect of: "Ah, I can see what you have in mind but I'm afraid that 6 martlets 3/2/1 will not be possible as they are too closely associated with the two counties of Sussex as well as with the Arundells of Wardour and other ancient families. On the other hand three martlets volant would achieve the same effect (if not better) than your original idea."
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Re: DARs completed in 2016

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 20 Sep 2016, 11:03

This is probably a very disloyal thought but, personally, I would encourage anyone thinking of spending their hard earned on petitioning for arms from either of the UK authorities to forget the IAAH DAR service and use the professionals, after all you'll be paying enough for the privileged and they certainly know what they are doing (and you are now safe from the psychedelic wonders* of Gwynn-Jones).

*inventive geometric designs.
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Re: DARs completed in 2016

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 20 Sep 2016, 11:08

probably the easiest thing to do is avoid designs that are too simple. Any arms with a single charge or ordinary is going to be already in use, unless the charge is new.

I imagine that if the armiger of the arms in question applied for arms in the college, they would add a few changes such as a ordinary or background charges.

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Re: DARs completed in 2016

Postby Terry Baldwin » 20 Sep 2016, 13:11

Thank you gentlemen, it would seem unlikely the my proposed scenario would happen and therefore the design roll would remain intact with the original certificated design.

If the herald proposes the single charge design without attached background (family history etc) it will be "looked at" very closely. To abandon the "single charge" arms entirely seems arbitrary and unnecessarily restrictive to the heralds. If he/she keeps in mind the CoA "differencing" rules and can come up with something, I would be very reluctant to say "can not do that it is a single charge". I will provide my objection to the arms and the samples found and let the herald then make a case for the original design, citing differences etc. I will also seek the board's views and include them in the discussions long before it becomes a "final".
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Re: DARs completed in 2016

Postby Terry Baldwin » 03 Nov 2016, 20:42

Emmott Final.jpg


Ian Emmott a resident of Colne, Lancashire, United Kingdom.

Blazon: Per Fess Sable and Azure a Fess Ermine between three Bull's Heads caboshed Or.

Crest: From a Torse Or and Sable a Barn Owl (Tyto alba) close face affronte proper.

Mantling: Sable doubled Or

Motto: Veritas et Sapientia (Truth and Wisdom)

Herald: Geoff Kingman-Sugars

Artist: Lee Lumbley

Date: Arms assumed 24 October 2016
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