assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

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rkasparek
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assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby rkasparek » 09 Jun 2014, 17:34

I have a design request for a shield with a Gules bordure (with gold fleur-de-lis) and a Sable field with a rayonety chalice Argent.

Is that considered color on color (red/sable)? I have read where some consider sable both a metal and a color, in which case my chalice (Argent) is metal on metal.

Image

I *might* be able to talk him into a border Or with fleur-de-lis Gules, but this is what he envisioned.

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JMcMillan
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby JMcMillan » 09 Jun 2014, 18:52

No, this is not a problem. Sable is definitely a color, not a metal. Some might object to the red border on black, but I don't think most would.

I'd get rid of the rays behind the chalice, though. They're a bit much, and not very medieval.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

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rkasparek
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby rkasparek » 09 Jun 2014, 19:21

Thanks for that...

However,
JMcMillan wrote:I'd get rid of the rays behind the chalice, though. They're a bit much, and not very medieval.


as far as the rays, this is what the customer has envisioned. I am guessing you'd call it "rayonated"?

How would one blazon this? (I get confused with which comes first, the main field or the bordure).

Would it be like: "Sable a chalice Argent rayonated, a bordure Gules with eight fleur-de-lis Gules"

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Chris Green
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby Chris Green » 09 Jun 2014, 20:51

I think rayonny is the usual term. BUT that is usually used to describe a line that looks like flames (Boutell p31). You might be able to describe what you illustrate as a sacred chalice in its glory - made that up but it sounds good.

While I would avoid, for example, a CoA party per pale/fess gules and sable, which looks too much like something from Albania, or an anarcho-syndicalist symbol, I see no great issue with your Sable a bordure gules - though not of course without metal charges. If you were here in the Nordic lands it would be out of the question, since they take the tincture "rule" very seriously (my own - English - CoA would probably not pass muster here).

As to blazon. What about: Sable a Sacred Chalice in its glory argent, on a bordure gules eight Fleurs-de-Lis or?
Chris Green
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rkasparek
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby rkasparek » 09 Jun 2014, 21:32

I like it
"Sable a Sacred Chalice in its glory argent, on a bordure gules eight Fleurs-de-Lis or
Nice. It may be made up but nice.

Iain Boyd
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby Iain Boyd » 10 Jun 2014, 00:10

Normally, the term most likely to be used is 'irradiated' - surrounded with rays of light as if the object was placed on a sun.

Thus, the blazon would be -

"Sable, a chalice irradiated argent, on a bordure gules eight fleurs-de-lis or."

However, I double checked Brooke-Little's "An Heraldic Alphabet" to find that an alternative to 'irradiated' is actually 'in glory'!

Regards,

Iain Boyd

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rkasparek
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby rkasparek » 10 Jun 2014, 04:13

Iain Boyd wrote:However, I double checked Brooke-Little's "An Heraldic Alphabet" to find that an alternative to 'irradiated' is actually 'in glory'!


Great!! Thank you.

So "Sable a chalice in Glory Argent, on a bordure Gules eight fleurs-de-lis Or" ??

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Chris Green
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby Chris Green » 10 Jun 2014, 05:13

Iain Boyd wrote:Normally, the term most likely to be used is 'irradiated' - surrounded with rays of light as if the object was placed on a sun. However, I double checked Brooke-Little's "An Heraldic Alphabet" to find that an alternative to 'irradiated' is actually 'in glory'!


I had a feeling I wasn't just inventing it. The sun in its glory is mentioned in Boutell, but the rays are quite different.
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rkasparek
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby rkasparek » 10 Jun 2014, 15:23

Now on the mantling for this - would Gules and Or be proper?

And the Crest will be simple - its simply the Cross of Lorraine Or

Does all of that sound appropriate?

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Chris Green
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby Chris Green » 10 Jun 2014, 16:15

Mantling is normally the first colour lined with the first metal, so in your case sable/argent. But, as you will see from my CoA, the College of Arms is open to exceptions (I wanted vert/argent because of my name, rather than the conventional azure/argent and the College had no difficulty with that). I can't see any objection to gules/or, though pedants might argue for gules/argent as more medieval.

As for the Cross of Lorraine as a crest, why not? It's simple and passes my rule-of-thumb: a device that could realistically be worn on a helm in the tilt-yard (made of papier-maché or wood, or perhaps a flat piece of painted metal). Having the Cross of Lorraine means of course that the helm should be affronté, otherwise the cross would sit askew.
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