assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

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rkasparek
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby rkasparek » 10 Jun 2014, 19:27

Good point about the Helm affronté, so would I describe the helm affronté?

"crest: helm affronté surmounted by a Cross of Lorraine Or" ??

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Chris Green
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby Chris Green » 10 Jun 2014, 20:50

rkasparek wrote:Good point about the Helm affronté, so would I describe the helm affronté?

"crest: helm affronté surmounted by a Cross of Lorraine Or" ??


While the helm of a gentleman normally faces dexter, Boutell suggested that the heraldic artist may depict it twisted more to the front if the crest would otherwise look wrong - as here. I would go one step further and say that affronté is appropriate if the crest demands it. But that should not appear in the blazon, it is merely an artistic licence. Otherwise there might at a later date be a suggestion that the helm was that of a knight. The helm must of course be closed; were it both open and affronté it would definitely be considered a knight's.
Chris Green
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rkasparek
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby rkasparek » 10 Jun 2014, 21:42

So for the crest: helm surmounted by a Cross of Lorraine Or

Thanks so much for the info!!!

As always, I learn so much here.

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Terry Baldwin
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby Terry Baldwin » 11 Jun 2014, 06:20

Rick,

I think that the crest should be referred to by itself: Crest: a cross of Lorraine or. Without listed the helm, it may sound like your are putting a helm upon a helm.

You could also add a torse: Upon a torse (wreath) Argent and Sable a Cross of Lorraine Or. If you are using Gules and Or for your mantling, then it would follow that the wreath would be of those colors.
Regards,

Terry Baldwin
IAAH Vice President: Heraldic Design

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JMcMillan
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby JMcMillan » 11 Jun 2014, 12:59

Terry Baldwin wrote:If you are using Gules and Or for your mantling, then it would follow that the wreath would be of those colors.


This is indeed usually the case, but not necessarily so. In the days when English and Scottish heralds used red and white mantling for most arms, and even now on Irish arms with red and white mantling, the torse was nevertheless of the principal metal and color on the shield. Here's an example from the CHI website:

Image
Joseph McMillan
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Terry Baldwin
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby Terry Baldwin » 11 Jun 2014, 16:07

Exception noted, I do remember reading something on that practice just recently. If the mantling follows the principal colors is torse locked to that, or are there exceptions to that as well, I wonder?
Regards,

Terry Baldwin
IAAH Vice President: Heraldic Design

Ryan Shuflin
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 13 Jun 2014, 02:35

Terry Baldwin wrote:Exception noted, I do remember reading something on that practice just recently. If the mantling follows the principal colors is torse locked to that, or are there exceptions to that as well, I wonder?


There are exceptions to everything. Although as far as torse and mantling there seems to be several rules for determining their tincture. The first, is of course taking the principle tinctures of the shield, another that sometimes overlaps, is the use of livery colours. Third, was at one time popular to use gules and argent, no matter what, with peers and royalty using gules doubled ermine. Now of course, the sovereign, at least in British tradition, has gold doubled ermine.

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GJKS
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby GJKS » 30 May 2016, 06:52

Chris Green wrote: Having the Cross of Lorraine means of course that the helm should be affronté, otherwise the cross would sit askew.


That's not correct as it is modern practice to skew both the crest and the helm towards each other so that it looks OK when rendered in 2D.
Regards,
Geoff

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GJKS
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby GJKS » 30 May 2016, 06:55

rkasparek wrote:Is that considered color on color (red/sable)? I have read where some consider sable both a metal and a color, in which case my chalice (Argent) is metal on metal.


Bordures, like cadency markings (which include bordures) Cantons and augmentations, are not subject to the 'Tincture Rule'.
Last edited by GJKS on 30 May 2016, 08:12, edited 1 time in total.
Regards,
Geoff

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Chris Green
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Re: assistance on metal-on-metal, color-on-color

Postby Chris Green » 30 May 2016, 07:59

GJKS wrote:
Chris Green wrote: Having the Cross of Lorraine means of course that the helm should be affronté, otherwise the cross would sit askew.


That's not correct as it is modern practice to skew both the crest and the helm towards each other so that it looks OK when rendered in 2D.


Whether it is correct or not would depend on the heraldic artist. What is definitely inappropriate is be to depict the cross skewed vis-a-vis the helm.
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