DARs Completed in 2013

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JMcMillan
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Re: DARs Completed in 2013

Postby JMcMillan » 27 Feb 2015, 18:04

Martin Goldstraw wrote:The original blazon for the crest is/was:
A cubit arms erect, habited, grasping a broken tilting spear in fesse all proper.

This blazon can obviously be exemplified (emblazoned) using a certain amount of artistic license however, at the Visitations of 1580, the visiting herald was quite clearly shown an image of the arms where there was certain embellishments (which still fitted the original blazon) and wrote down in blazon precisely (and possibly over zealously) what he saw:

A cubit arm erect, habited paly of five pieces Or and Sable, cuffed Argent, hand proper, grasping the upper and lower portion of a broken tilting spear of the first, point downwards.

So, taking the image as the blueprint (Gaylorite principle) we are now compelled to forever illustrate the sleeves as "habited paly of five pieces Or and Sable, cuffed Argent" instead of any interpretation we wish of the more flexible (and simple) habited.

I am not a disciple of the Gaylor principle.


If that were the Gaylor principle, neither would I be a disciple of it. But the orthodox approach would be that the blazon written down by the herald and placed in the records of the College of Arms must thereafter prevail, even though it was over-precise, because once the words have been written we must conform all future emblazonments to the words. I believe words can be erased, or struck through, and John Gaylor is, if nothing, an advocate of artistic freedom of interpretation.
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Re: DARs Completed in 2013

Postby JMcMillan » 27 Feb 2015, 18:12

To bring a bit of science to this, the Gules/Sanguine on the arms of Camden and Tyler above, is RGB 175:0:1, the very bright red on Martin's illustration being 254:0:1, essentially pure red.

By comparison, the center of the cross of St George on the arms of the College of Arms, from their website, comes out as RGB 177:67:47, which is to say virtually the same red value as on Geoff's "sanguine," but significantly browner (reflected by the green value) and purplier (by the blue value). Scientifically, if one is gules and the other is sanguine, it's the cross of St George that's sanguine. But we know it's not, right?
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Re: DARs Completed in 2013

Postby Chris Green » 27 Feb 2015, 18:28

I register this blazon with some official or unofficial heraldic organization. When I discover that my expert has made a mistake, am I then obliged to change my arms to match the erroneous blazon?


That shouldn't happen. The procedure, at least as far as the College of Arms is concerned, is collaborative and allows for sketches and suggestions to be exchanged. The final draft sketch/blazon must be signed by the applicant. The applicant should never get a CoA that doesn't match their expectations. It may not entirely match their original wishes, but that would be because they were unheraldic.
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Re: DARs Completed in 2013

Postby Chris Green » 27 Feb 2015, 18:50

JMcMillan wrote:To bring a bit of science to this, the Gules/Sanguine on the arms of Camden and Tyler above, is RGB 175:0:1, the very bright red on Martin's illustration being 254:0:1, essentially pure red.

By comparison, the center of the cross of St George on the arms of the College of Arms, from their website, comes out as RGB 177:67:47, which is to say virtually the same red value as on Geoff's "sanguine," but significantly browner (reflected by the green value) and purplier (by the blue value). Scientifically, if one is gules and the other is sanguine, it's the cross of St George that's sanguine. But we know it's not, right?


Unlike the flags of many nations, the exact specifications of the Union Flag and of St George's flag are not set down legally.
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Re: DARs Completed in 2013

Postby JMcMillan » 27 Feb 2015, 22:16

Chris Green wrote:
JMcMillan wrote:To bring a bit of science to this, the Gules/Sanguine on the arms of Camden and Tyler above, is RGB 175:0:1, the very bright red on Martin's illustration being 254:0:1, essentially pure red.

By comparison, the center of the cross of St George on the arms of the College of Arms, from their website, comes out as RGB 177:67:47, which is to say virtually the same red value as on Geoff's "sanguine," but significantly browner (reflected by the green value) and purplier (by the blue value). Scientifically, if one is gules and the other is sanguine, it's the cross of St George that's sanguine. But we know it's not, right?


Unlike the flags of many nations, the exact specifications of the Union Flag and of St George's flag are not set down legally.


So? Who said anything about flags? The St. George's cross on the arms of the College is a cross gules isn't it? Not a cross sanguine. Presumably the heralds there would know enough about heraldic tinctures not to use sanguine if something is supposed to be gules. Conclusion: what's on the arms of Camden and Tyler at the top of this thread is gules, not sanguine. And should therefore be blazoned as gules, not sanguine.
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Re: DARs Completed in 2013

Postby Chris Green » 28 Feb 2015, 07:03

So? Who said anything about flags? The St. George's cross on the arms of the College is a cross gules isn't it? Not a cross sanguine. Presumably the heralds there would know enough about heraldic tinctures not to use sanguine if something is supposed to be gules. Conclusion: what's on the arms of Camden and Tyler at the top of this thread is gules, not sanguine. And should therefore be blazoned as gules, not sanguine.


I merely mention flags because Argent a Cross Gules representing England in the College of Arms CoA and elsewhere derives from the English flag and not vice-versa.

I agree with you that the tincture gules is often depicted significantly darker than scarlet (its use in St George's cross being a prime example). Similarly azure is often depicted in shades darker than "Oxford" blue (typically in azure a saltire argent). These variations are puzzling, if not plain irritating, to commercial artists trained in the rigours of Pantone. But variations in tone have existed as long as heraldry, as have differences in the interpretation of animals, birds, etc. It is what raises a CoA above a mere logo.
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Re: DARs Completed in 2013

Postby JMcMillan » 28 Feb 2015, 14:27

Chris Green wrote:
So? Who said anything about flags? The St. George's cross on the arms of the College is a cross gules isn't it? Not a cross sanguine. Presumably the heralds there would know enough about heraldic tinctures not to use sanguine if something is supposed to be gules. Conclusion: what's on the arms of Camden and Tyler at the top of this thread is gules, not sanguine. And should therefore be blazoned as gules, not sanguine.


I merely mention flags because Argent a Cross Gules representing England in the College of Arms CoA and elsewhere derives from the English flag and not vice-versa.

I agree with you that the tincture gules is often depicted significantly darker than scarlet (its use in St George's cross being a prime example). Similarly azure is often depicted in shades darker than "Oxford" blue (typically in azure a saltire argent). These variations are puzzling, if not plain irritating, to commercial artists trained in the rigours of Pantone. But variations in tone have existed as long as heraldry, as have differences in the interpretation of animals, birds, etc. It is what raises a CoA above a mere logo.


I couldn't agree more. Just a few months ago I was astonished to hear heraldists who (I thought) would know better arguing that the light shade of blue used in the chief of the shield on the U.S. "presidential coat of arms" constituted a difference from the U.S. arms as depicted on the great seal. (Leave aside that NO shades are depicted on the great seal, a seal being by definition monochrome.)
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Re: DARs Completed in 2013

Postby JMcMillan » 28 Feb 2015, 14:52

Chris Green wrote:That shouldn't happen.


No, it shouldn't. Yet there's been ample discussion on various heraldic fora of the mismatch between blazon and emblazonment on the English letters patent granting arms to some famous marine biologist--I don't recall the name, but it's the green and gold Gwynne-Jones design, bendy wavy with a chevron bendwise sinister wavy all counterchanged and sprinkled with bezants, or something of that nature. Anyway, if I recall the substance of the discussion, what purports to be a field bendy wavy of X (six or eight, I forget which) is actually depicted with an odd number of bendwise pieces, the error having evidently been overlooked in all the op-art counterchanging.

So even the pros make mistakes.


(Found it: the arms of Dr. Frederick Hardy. The blazon says "Bendy wavy of six Or and Vert..." but the emblazonment shows "Or three bendlets wavy Vert...")

Image
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Re: DARs Completed in 2013

Postby Mike_Oettle » 01 Mar 2015, 20:51

Chris, since you mention the flag of Scotland, the dark blue (navy blue) that is so familiar was adopted by the Royal Navy during the 19th century (for the Union Jack as well as St Andrew’s cross) on the grounds that, being dark, it would take longer to fade.
When the Scottish Parliament came into being it investigated this anomaly and picked on a slightly pale royal blue shade (I forget the specification) that more closely resembled the sky over Scotland in full sunlight.
There are still variations in flags that are hoisted or waved, but (apart from the RN) I presume the specified shade will come into broader use over time.
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Mike
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[Proverbs 14:27]

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Re: DARs Completed in 2013

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 02 Mar 2015, 22:43

JMcMillan wrote:(Found it: the arms of Dr. Frederick Hardy. The blazon says "Bendy wavy of six Or and Vert..." but the emblazonment shows "Or three bendlets wavy Vert...")

Image

I can see at least part of seven bends or bendlets.

As far as Gules vs. Sanguine, they are too often a distinction without a difference. There is no reliable way to emblazon sanguine so that it won't be mistaken for Gules, and so the difference only exists in the blazon. Similar to the difference between cinqfoils and fraises in the Fraser arms.


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