Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Nordic heraldry (Denmark, Faroe Islands, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden)
User avatar
JMcMillan
Posts: 544
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 22:33
Location: United States

Re: Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Postby JMcMillan » 18 May 2013, 14:34

Chris Green wrote:As a non-Swede it would clearly be inappropriate for him to assume arms that could be construed as "Swedish".


What does this mean?

As a US citizen he could of course assume any arms he chose ...


Legally, yes. Ethically, only arms that don't infringe on the armorial rights of others.

As an English-born person he would however be able to receive a grant of arms - and that CoA might refer to his US and Swedish (Austrian for that matter) links (though I am sure the College of Arms would be careful to ensure that the design did not pretend to be officially Swedish by its use of charges e.g. from the Swedish royal arms).


Of course. In a way, the model here are the coats of arms designed (as I recall) by Ronny Andersen for Crown Princess Mary of Denmark, and for her father, Prof. John Donaldson. The arms allude to MacDonald and to Australia.

In any case, how do we know that Mr. O'Neill isn't already entitled to arms of his own? O'Neill isn't exactly an obscure name in Irish history. I'm sure someone out there is beavering away at the genealogy at this very moment.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

User avatar
GSelvester
Posts: 83
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 23:01
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Postby GSelvester » 18 May 2013, 17:16

Why are there references to assumed arms as being "non-official"? In places where there is no heraldic authority that regulates arms (like the US or Sweden, for that matter, regarding the arms of private, non-royal, citizens) assumed arms are official. They are officially assumed arms. They aren't "unofficial" because they haven't been granted when there is no person, body or mechanism to grant them.

Marcus Karlsson
Posts: 950
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 08:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 18 May 2013, 18:39

Chris Green wrote:
We are in fact talking the same (heraldic) language, though perhaps I was not entirely clear. When I referred to "official" Swedish arms I meant those regulated arms that are used by members of the Royal Court. Mr O'Neill will not be a member of the Royal Court, so does not fall within the purview of the Court's heraldic regulation.


Ok, then I understand what you ment. Perhaps you should change the Royal Court to the Royal Family as the use of heraldry of other members are regulated only by heraldic tradition.

As a non-Swede it would clearly be inappropriate for him to assume arms that could be construed as "Swedish". As a US citizen he could of course assume any arms he chose (with or without the assistance of AHS - or IAAH for that matter!). As an English-born person he would however be able to receive a grant of arms - and that CoA might refer to his US and Swedish (Austrian for that matter) links (though I am sure the College of Arms would be careful to ensure that the design did not pretend to be officially Swedish by its use of charges e.g. from the Swedish royal arms).


With inappropriate I guess you mean to use charges from the Swedish royal arms. It could not as you write be inappropriate for him to include some reference to Sweden if he would chose do to this. But the couple could of cause unite their Arms as Married couples do. The Royal insignia of cause then restricted to Princess Madeleine's Arms.

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2658
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Postby Chris Green » 18 May 2013, 22:05

Why are there references to assumed arms as being "non-official"?


By "official" I mean that they have been granted by an authority that has official sanction (by law or ancient custom) to do so. In England that would be the College of Arms, in Scotland Lord Lyon's Court. In Sweden commoners (and indeed non-royal nobles, though they would virtually all if not all have arms already) do not have access to any such authority and may assume arms with or without the assistance and concurrence of one of the Swedish heraldic asociations.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

Marcus Karlsson
Posts: 950
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 08:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 09 Jun 2013, 14:28

Well no Arms, but on their Wedding Yesterday it could be seen that Mr O'Niell had been awarded the Order of the Northern Star. Heraldry in the form of the Colours of the Armed Forces Units who lined the cortege route from the Royal Castle could be seen as witnessed by myself (Got a nice picture on the Colour of the Air Combat School and of the Cavalry Standard of the Lifeguards).

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2658
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Postby Chris Green » 09 Jun 2013, 16:51

Strangely (to me at least) Mr O'Neill was only made a Commander of the Order (the five levels being: Commander Grand Cross/Commander First Class/Commander/Knight First Class/Knight).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Polar_Star

Someone knowledgeable in the arcane rituals of Orders and Decorations can no doubt explain why in Sweden a Commander of an Order ranks higher than a Knight whereas in the UK the reverse is true.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
JMcMillan
Posts: 544
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 22:33
Location: United States

Re: Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Postby JMcMillan » 09 Jun 2013, 18:19

Because in Sweden, as in most places with orders of chivalry, "knight" is implicit in "commander." It originally referred to a knight who held a commandery in the Order of Malta, a knight who commanded other knights.

If I'm not mistaken, "commander" as a rank in British orders separate from that of "knight commander" only dates to the creation of the Royal Victorian Order in 1896.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2658
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Postby Chris Green » 09 Jun 2013, 18:46

You are quite right that none of the British Orders of Chivalry that pre-dated 1896 (Garter, Thistle, St Patrick, Bath, St Michael & St George, Star of India, Indian Empire) have/had Commanders, the third grade (for those that have/had a second and third grade - not Garter, Thistle and St Patrick) is/was Companion. The second grade is/was Knight Commander.

In the UK of course the third-fifth grades do not have knightly status, the bearers are esquires. In the case of the Swedish Polar Star Order the fourth and fifth grades are riddare, which translates as knight.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
Jeremy Kudlick
Posts: 196
Joined: 16 Jul 2012, 11:31
Location: Central Virginia, United States
Contact:

Re: Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Postby Jeremy Kudlick » 09 Jun 2013, 19:17

In the French Légion d'honneur and Ordre nationale du Mérite, the five grades from senior to junior are Grand-Croix, Grand Officier, Commandeur, Officier, Chevalier, translating to Grand Cross, Grand Officer, Commander, Officer, Knight. It seems a number of national orders outside the Commonwealth infer "knightly" status upon all recipients without actually conferring a title.
Jeremy Kudlick
IAAH Associate Fellow
Semper Patriam Servire Praesto

User avatar
Ton de Witte
Posts: 1018
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 21:23
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Princess Madeleine of Sweden

Postby Ton de Witte » 10 Jun 2013, 08:29

same in the Netherlands a knight (ridder) of an order is of lower rank then an officer of commander of the order.
Ton de Witte
IAAH secretary


Return to “Nordic heraldry”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest