Chinese Cardinals CoA

[Tomasz Steifer]

She was by us last interesting discussion about strange (or incorrect) arms. I remembered the coat of arms of HECardinal Ignatius Kung. Interestingly enough, so there is no papal College of Arms, which controlled the ecclesiastical coats of arms that compliance with the rules of heraldry.

[Chris Green]

When last seen this CoA was in a thread called "Bad Heraldry". By traditionalist standards this sort of heralödry must be considered pretty awful, but that is their tradition, and, as you say, there is no Papal Heraldic Authority to advise.

Here is the CoA of the current Bishop of Hong Kong, John Tong Hon:



and of his predecessor Cardinal Zen Ze-kiun:



I wouldn't like to attempt to blazon these examples!

[Tomasz Steifer]

... there is no Papal Heraldic Authority to advise.

And may our association officially propose to the Pope, who will serve as honorary, non-profit, papal College of Arms? I am ready to take on such a commitment, I think that some of our colleagues, as well?

[Chris Green]

First one would need to be a Roman Catholic. Then one would need to overturn Archbishop Heim's opinion that a Papal heraldic Authority was inadvisable as It would, in his eyes, have been "stifling the artistry that is a great part of the attraction of heraldry" (but back in 1978 he wouldn't have seen the ecclesiastical heraldry that has flourished in the Far East!).

I for one would not like to be tasked with bringing order to the heraldry of the Roman Catholic Church. I imagine it would take a Papal Bull to do that and I think the Holy Father has more pressing matters. Merely supporting the Church in China must feature often in his counsels and his prayers.

[Tomasz Steifer]

First one would need to be a Roman Catholic. Then one would need to overturn Archbishop Heim's opinion that a Papal heraldic Authority was inadvisable as It would, in his eyes, have been "stifling the artistry that is a great part of the attraction of heraldry" (but back in 1978 he wouldn't have seen the ecclesiastical heraldry that has flourished in the Far East!).

I for one would not like to be tasked with bringing order to the heraldry of the Roman Catholic Church. I imagine it would take a Papal Bull to do that and I think the Holy Father has more pressing matters. Merely supporting the Church in China must feature often in his counsels and his prayers.

I suppose I'm not the only Roman Catholic among the members of the IAAH - if ever such a requirement would be needed.

I think it is worth papierzowi (or an equivalent institution of the Vatican) to demonstrate factual errors in these new heraldic emblems, propose to declare a road repair and support.

[GSelvester]

They are correct with regards to the external ornaments used so Rome won't care. Those are the only regulations with which Rome concerns itself. The Holy See is NOT going to get into the business of regulating the design of a coat of arms (i.e. what is on the shield). They simply aren't interested.

[Chris Green]

The Holy See is NOT going to get into the business of regulating the design of a coat of arms (i.e. what is on the shield). They simply aren't interested.

I do find that both sad and strange, given with what care the Roman Catholic Church still treats, for example, what vestments are appropriate for what services or parts of the service. One doesn't see Cardinals turning up to a Papal Mass in gaudy shirts and shorts just because they come from countries where those are the norm.

I have a notion that if Archbishop Heim had been in favour of a Papal Heraldic Authority he would have been listened to and that today it would be as natural for all prelates to be granted truly heraldic arms as it is for them to wear particular vestments. (How that would have gone down in countries with their own heraldic authorities is another story.)

[Chas Charles-Dunne]

The Holy See is NOT going to get into the business of regulating the design of a coat of arms (i.e. what is on the shield). They simply aren't interested.

As unfortunate as it is, it is quite understandable. These are after all Roman Catholic clerics and should not be producing any children to whom they would pass down their arms. The need is just not there.

[Chris Green]

These are after all Roman Catholic clerics and should not be producing any children to whom they would pass down their arms.

Where does it say in the small print that one should only acquire arms in order to pass them on to one's children. I have arms but no children. More importantly for the purposes of this thread, the Pope has arms but no children.

[steven harris]

I suppose that I can take one more strike at this already-demised equine…

I will admit surprise when I first learned that the Vatican didn’t have an office of some sort which oversaw heraldry in the Church. As long each bishop is responsible for devising his own arms (arms that are not regulated and are only recorded in diocesan archives), then the bishops will do as they please with impunity. The fact that the use of the galero is as uniform as it is today is just this side of miraculous.

Despite being asked to charter a heraldic authority for the Church by John XXIII, Archbishop Bruno Heim (1911-2003) was not in favor of the idea because he believed that such an authority would stifle the artistry that is a great part of the attraction of heraldry. I can respect the Archbishop’s point of view.

Although I would not suggest that the Vatican institute something like a “Sacred College of Arms” to “grant” arms in the British model, the Church would do well to establish a formal heraldic office whose raison d'être would be three-fold:

(1)
Each bishop would still be free to devise and adopt his own arms as he saw fit (just as he is today). This heraldic office would be available, however, not to champion any one particular school of thought (as Archbishop Heim seems to be concerned that it would), but rather to offer a source of heraldic expertise to act as a guide to ensure heraldic best-practices.

(2)
This heraldic office would be empowered to regulate the usage of the galero (the wide-brim hats), fiocchi (their tassels), and the other additaments used in ecclesiastical heraldry. Again, this is not to stifle anything, but to ensure regularity.

(3)
Lastly, it seems a waste that the arms used by bishops today are not registered and/or recorded anywhere but in their respective all-but-inaccessible diocesan archives. This heraldic office (however named) would serve as the official repository for church heraldry. If made available online, it would be a gold-mine to heraldists such as ourselves.

My 2¢-worth,
Steven