Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

The Heraldry of Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourg
Marcus Karlsson
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Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 24 Jul 2017, 17:34

Arms of the Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands
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Chris Green
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Re: Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

Postby Chris Green » 24 Jul 2017, 18:23

I wonder what status this centre has, or its coat of arms. The collar of SS (hardly intended to be Lancastrian) seems to have a Danish cross dependent, though it could I suppose be a Savoyan cross. As for the crossed batons, are they intended to be those of a marshal? Scarcely. A King of Arms? Possibly. The crown/coronet is I suppose generic. It is certainly not Dutch.
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Marcus Karlsson
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Re: Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 24 Jul 2017, 21:08

I guess the medalion Bears the arms of the archdiocese of Utrecht. The batons are probably Heralds' batons.

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Chris Green
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Re: Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

Postby Chris Green » 25 Jul 2017, 05:27

Marcus Karlsson wrote:I guess the medalion Bears the arms of the archdiocese of Utrecht. The batons are probably Heralds' batons.


Possibly. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Utrecht does indeed seem to have usurped the Savoyard royal arms:

Image

And I suppose the batons may be intended to be those of heralds (although a Centre for Church Heraldry does not seem to be entitled to use them).

But is the Centre for Church Heraldry a Roman Catholic Organisation? The RC church does not, as far as I am aware, recognise any official body to regulate heraldry. And if the centre has no regulatory function, why the batons? If the centre is not Roman Catholic why the arms of the RC Archdiocese? Mystery upon mystery.
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Chris Green
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Re: Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

Postby Chris Green » 25 Jul 2017, 06:57

I was harsh in my judgement that the RC Archdiocese of Utrecht usurped the Royal arms of Savoy. I find that the pre-Reformation Diocese did indeed use Gules a Cross Argent, though by whom these arms were granted or when remains (to me) a mystery. The re-formed (but not reformed) Archdiocese presumably resumed the use of the arms previously in use, though I imagine without any official sanction at that time.

Perhaps our Secretary can enlighten us further.
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JMcMillan
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Re: Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

Postby JMcMillan » 25 Jul 2017, 13:10

The arms of Dutch bishoprics and archbishoprics appear to have been confirmed by royal decree in the 1990s. They appear in the armorial registry of the Hoge Raad van Adel (High Council of the Nobility), those of Utrecht with a date of 1996.

http://www.therightproductions.nl/hoger ... wapen=2069

Given that the Netherlands has never restricted unilateral assumption, I doubt that any official sanction was legally required for the revived archdiocese to resume use of the ancient arms. The registry also includes the arms of cities and towns, many of which have clearly been used continuously since early times, but with entries dated at various times since the High Council was created along with the monarchy, in 1816. The registry uses the term "bevestiging," which Google translates as "confirmation," not as "grant." A confirmation implies recognition of an existing right to the arms, not conferral of a right.
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Marcus Karlsson
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Re: Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 25 Jul 2017, 18:16

As I can find out the Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands is a private initiative thats gives advise on Heraldry in the Church. And the Church here seems to mean the Roman Catholic Church.

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Chris Green
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Re: Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

Postby Chris Green » 26 Jul 2017, 07:13

Marcus Karlsson wrote:As I can find out the Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands is a private initiative that gives advise on Heraldry in the Church. And the Church here seems to mean the Roman Catholic Church.


As the Church of Rome has no heraldic authority, I imagine that some Dutch heraldists are doing their best to give guidance to the local bishops, clergy and congregations, which we should applaud.

The assumption of the batons however suggests the arrogation of the right to perform the functions of heralds, rather than to give advice. It would be as though the IAAH added batons behind its arms (or its Board members did - now there's a thought :mrgreen: ) It would be nice to know whether the Centre has assumed the arms or whether it has the approval of the Hoge Raad van Adel.
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JMcMillan
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Re: Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

Postby JMcMillan » 26 Jul 2017, 18:23

Chris Green wrote:
Marcus Karlsson wrote:As I can find out the Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands is a private initiative that gives advise on Heraldry in the Church. And the Church here seems to mean the Roman Catholic Church.


As the Church of Rome has no heraldic authority, I imagine that some Dutch heraldists are doing their best to give guidance to the local bishops, clergy and congregations, which we should applaud.

The assumption of the batons however suggests the arrogation of the right to perform the functions of heralds, rather than to give advice. It would be as though the IAAH added batons behind its arms (or its Board members did - now there's a thought :mrgreen: ) It would be nice to know whether the Centre has assumed the arms or whether it has the approval of the Hoge Raad van Adel.


Any number of private heraldic organizations use batons behind the shield, the Dutch Centraal Bureau voor Genealogie, the "Wappen Herold" and "Wappen-Loewe" heraldry societies in Germany, the Polish Heraldry Society, and the Macedonian Heraldry Society to name five. The arms of the Swedish Heraldry Society as used for its Svenskt Vapenregister are backed by a baton and a sword.
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Chris Green
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Re: Center for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands

Postby Chris Green » 27 Jul 2017, 07:11

Any number of private heraldic organizations use batons behind the shield, the Dutch Centraal Bureau voor Genealogie, the "Wappen Herold" and "Wappen-Loewe" heraldry societies in Germany, the Polish Heraldry Society, and the Macedonian Heraldry Society to name five. The arms of the Swedish Heraldry Society as used for its Svenskt Vapenregister are backed by a baton and a sword.


My point, in respect of the arms of the Centre for Church Heraldry in the Netherlands, is that (and I quote my own post): "The assumption of the batons however suggests the arrogation of the right to perform the functions of heralds, rather than to give advice." To me it does suggest just that, whether the arms are Dutch, English, Scottish or from anywhere else.

I can't speak for the German, Polish, or Macedonian examples you give, but the Swedish Register of Arms (Svenskt Vapenregister) does perform (albeit without the official sanction of the Swedish King or government) many of the functions of heralds, in that it registers the arms of Swedish citizens and residents (including my own though granted by the College of Arms), if they meet recognised heraldic practice and do not impinge on the better rights of others. In any case the use of external symbols in Sweden is commonplace; virtually all authorities use them, which is not the case, for example, in Anglo-Saxon heraldry.

It would be interesting to know whether the Hoge Raad van Adel approved the Centre's arms and thus gave official approval to the use of the batons. It would be equally interesting to know whether the Centre is indeed merely an advisory body, or whether it has been granted any powers of registration and "quality control" by the Roman Catholic church in the Netherlands.
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