Coat of Arms near Strasbourg c. 1770

The Heraldry of France
Maurice Meslans
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Coat of Arms near Strasbourg c. 1770

Postby Maurice Meslans » 28 Oct 2013, 21:28

I am new to this forum, I introduced myself on the German forum. This coat of arms is on a piece of silver from Strasbourg around 1770, so it could be either French or German. I posted it on another site, it seems the one on the left is from the Percin family, although I cold find none in the Strasbourg area. The right side is either a "main de Justice" or a "main dextre benissamte" on waves with what looks like a sun above. Of course I would love it if someone can recognize both coat of arms, but I would at least like to understand a few things. First is there a name for these symbols in German, besides wellen, sonne, and hand? And secondly is there any way to know if this is a wedding piece with the coat of arms of the husband on the left and the wife on the right, or if this is a single persons coat of arms.
Thanks,
Maurice Meslans
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Maurice Meslans
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Re: Coat of Arms near Strasbourg c. 1770

Postby Maurice Meslans » 30 Oct 2013, 18:35

I unintentionally omitted to say that below this coat of arms are the initials LK, but this may be a red herring anyway as I am not sure they were contemporary with the arms, or added later.
Thanks,
Maurice

Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Coat of Arms near Strasbourg c. 1770

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 01 Nov 2013, 21:58

It is probable that this represents two families, and is the martial arms of husband and wife. In that case, I would suggest that only one of the arms could be from near Strasbourg. Googling for sun and hands I found the Macbrady(an Irish family) arms have a hand pointing to a sun. Further research shows they one member was made a HRE count and another was an Austrian field marshal, so they were catholic and lived on the continent. I also found a glass with similar arms, although reversed sides. http://p2.la-img.com/524/13855/4268224_1_l.jpg I have no idea if this is just coincidence or means anything at all.

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Chris Green
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Re: Coat of Arms near Strasbourg c. 1770

Postby Chris Green » 02 Nov 2013, 06:32

Here is the story of Field Marshal Baron Thomas O'Brady with an illustration of his arms. His wife was an O'Moore and he had no children. So if the arms on the piece of silver are his, then the other arms should be O'Moore (which they aren't). They could of course relate to another O'Brady/MacBrady - Sir Terence O'Brady who lived in Brussels for example.

http://home.exetel.com.au/jbrady/macbrady_history.htm

The fact that the silver piece does not include the Field Marshal's motto "In periculo intrepidus" might suggest that this is not a piece owned by him. He was apparently granted the motto by the Emperor so would, one might imagine, be particularly keen to show it off with his arms.
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Maurice Meslans
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Re: Coat of Arms near Strasbourg c. 1770

Postby Maurice Meslans » 02 Nov 2013, 16:27

I am not sure I understand the comment about location. I would think that one of the couple was at least in or near Strasbourg, but that doesn't preclude both from being in the neighborhood.

It seems that it is fairly likely that the left hand side, which again I presume is the husband, is that of the de Percin family. It has the swan and the three stars, although I guess what the color of what the swan is swimming in it debatable.

Unless I am wrong the right side would have to be that of a female member of the Brady family. I personally don't think the hand and sun on the piece of silver over waves, looks anything like the Brady arms. Still as I am a novice, so I tried to find some link between the Brady family and Strasbourg or the Percin family. I could find none. It seems to me the glass is just coincidence, and it lacks key elements of both arms. Finally the Baron is too late for the spoon.
I appreciate however the effort, and I am willing to try and track down any suggestion.
Maurice Meslans

Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Coat of Arms near Strasbourg c. 1770

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 03 Nov 2013, 14:46

I didn't think that the silver belonged to the Baron, but rather see him as evidence that Bradys were on the continent. The known Brady arms, to which I can find no variation to, is the only arms I could find with a sun and a hand. Since it is less of a stretch to say that the pelican arms are that of de Percin family, I would look into genealogical records from the de Percins, to see whom they married. I also, believe the sun is called mouvant in French, because it is not entirely in the shield.

Maurice Meslans
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Re: Coat of Arms near Strasbourg c. 1770

Postby Maurice Meslans » 03 Nov 2013, 15:36

I did try to see who the Percins married around the time of the spoon. Keeping in mind I could find no connection of the family with Strasbourg. Basically I tried to find the arms of every female who married into the family. No luck. A branch of the family ended up in Martinique, I thought perhaps that would explain the waves under the hand, but no luck there either. Of course I guess the Percin name could be a red herring, if the LK is contemporary to the piece it could be the male's name begins with K and just happened to have arms similar to the Percin family. I am coming to the conclusion that these arms just aren't going to be traceable. But I will try using mouvant.
I am a little more concerned with the more unusual piece I posted on the German forum.
Thanks,
Maurice Meslans

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Re: Coat of Arms near Strasbourg c. 1770

Postby Hooper » 03 Nov 2013, 18:55

If you have any records to do so, you may attempt to research companies that made wares for households. They may not exist any more, but if they do - even without records dating far back enough, they could probably have the knowledge to give you an approximate date of when they were made. That would at least narrow the search down.

Of course thats if there is any way to trace ware companies in the region.
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Maurice Meslans
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Re: Coat of Arms near Strasbourg c. 1770

Postby Maurice Meslans » 04 Nov 2013, 03:52

I am afraid when it comes to Strasbourg silver, I am either the expert in this country, or one of the leading ones. The problem is that Strasbourg silver, unlike some French silver, does not have date letters. The stuffing spoon was made by Jean Michel Merck. He worked from 1762 until 1789. Without other information it is impossible be be more accurate. As far as records go, while some American silversmiths left day books, it it quite uncommon to find ones left by French silversmiths. My guess is that it was less important to the heirs, and of course constant wars have a tendency to destroy ephemera. I did realize I haven't done a Google search for some time, so I did so again. There was no mention of any other information on Merck, and only a handful or two of his works have surfaced, auction houses often ignore or just mention coats of arms, but none seem to be pertinent. Thanks for the recommendation.
Maurice Meslans


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