Variety in standards

Heraldic flags such as banners, badge banners, standards, pennons, pincels ... Feel free to discuss and compare the flying heraldy used in any country here.
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Arthur Radburn
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Variety in standards

Postby Arthur Radburn » 25 Jul 2017, 16:50

The conventional form of a standard in England, Scotland, Ireland, South Africa and Canada is (a) the arms in the hoist, and (b) three badges and/or crests, separated by two bends bearing the motto, in the fly. Here's a typical example : the standard of Nettie Mealman, granted by the Chief Herald of Ireland in 2001 :

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However, not every standard follows the convention. Here are some variations which I came across.

1 - The standard of the Company of Watermen and Lightermen of the River Thames (one of the London livery companies) displays the arms of the City of London, followed by the shield of the company's arms, followed by badges and motto. This is a College of Arms design from 1983 :

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(Sorry about the fuzzy quality, but it's the only image I could find.)

2 - If the motto is short and requires only one bend to display it, the norm is to decorate the second bend with curlicues. In the case of David E. Hjalmarson, however, the Canadian Heraldic Authority omitted the second bend (CHA 2007) :

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3 - What if your motto is in Chinese, and has to be read vertically from the bottom up? Placing it on bends doesn't work so well. Here's a solution, in the standard of Derwin Kah Wai Mak : the motto on a pale, followed by the arms, crest and badge. This was granted by the CHA in 2016 and later registered (with the addition of a fringe) in South Africa :

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Arthur Radburn
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 26 Jul 2017, 09:57

As I understand it, in England (College of Arms) standards are not granted. According to the College's own website, "Arms and crests, badges and supporters, are granted" and "Letters Patent granting arms and crest may also grant a badge and exemplify* a standard." So, it is the badge that is granted and the standard is simply the vehicle upon which the badge is illustrated.

With this in mind, there should be no reason why an armiger who has been granted arms and crest could not exemplify his own standard with the arms in the hoist and three depictions of his crest in the fly. Once you have been granted arms (or have the ability to assume them), you can display them however you wish. If you want to devise some other design for a standard, or any other type of flying heraldry, I can't see why you should be prevented from doing so.

* Exemplify = illustrate or clarify by giving an example.
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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Arthur Radburn » 26 Jul 2017, 13:51

Martin Goldstraw wrote:As I understand it, in England (College of Arms) standards are not granted. ... So, it is the badge that is granted and the standard is simply the vehicle upon which the badge is illustrated.
That's my understanding too. Scotland, Ireland and Canada actually grant the standard as well as the badge. South Africa registers the standard as a separate item from the badge, each on its own certificate.
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 26 Jul 2017, 14:32

It is worth noting that in Scotland, any armiger can have a pennon and (per a recent conversation on the HSS forum) "Lyon Sellar opined that it would be sensible for them to be assumed, as every armiger was entitled to one".

Regarding badges in Scotland, the following is also a quote from a discussion on the HSS forum:

“The fact that recent Lyons have allowed or disallowed badges is irrelevant because Lyon has no authority over them. Anyone, including post AFT barons, may assume badges at will, and if Lyon does elect to grant them, they have no greater authenticity than assumed ones. The Lord Lyon is King of Arms, not the Grand Panjandrum. Balfour Paul was quoted as an authoritative* ( = knowledgeable) source.”

*Lord Lyon Balfour Paul wrote in Heraldry in Relation to Scottish History and Art, p.126: “What should be put on liveries is the badge which can be selected at the individual will of the owner.”".
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MenkAndemicael
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby MenkAndemicael » 02 Aug 2017, 05:01

Number 3 (Derwin Kah Wai Mak) seems odd.
Placing the motto next to the pole suggests it's part of the arms. Considering Chinese is read vertically from right to left, I don't see why it couldn't have been between the badges as normal.

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Stephen J F Plowman
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Stephen J F Plowman » 01 Jun 2018, 09:43

Arthur Radburn wrote:
Martin Goldstraw wrote:As I understand it, in England (College of Arms) standards are not granted. ... So, it is the badge that is granted and the standard is simply the vehicle upon which the badge is illustrated.
That's my understanding too. Scotland, Ireland and Canada actually grant the standard as well as the badge. South Africa registers the standard as a separate item from the badge, each on its own certificate.


The College of Arms may not "Grant" a Standard but they certainly charge for one. :D

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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 01 Jun 2018, 17:57

Well, if they draw one, they have to pay the artist.

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 03 Jun 2018, 19:11

There is at least one more format for a standard, at least in Scotland - the arms in the hoist and the crest and/or badges and the motto extending horizontally on a single-color fly, e.g. the Duke of Argyll. The pattern resembles a really big guidon; but it is actually termed a standard.

The Canadian standards, while generally following the English etc. pattern, appear considerably shorter - more like a guidon. (My guess is that the Canadians have taken the sensible view that the UK version is just too big for most practical uses, and allows it's Armigers to scale their standards to whatever length is practical for a particular circumstance.)
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 04 Jun 2018, 15:54

Michael F. McCartney wrote: (My guess is that the Canadians have taken the sensible view that the UK version is just too big for most practical uses, and allows it's Armigers to scale their standards to whatever length is practical for a particular circumstance.)


There is of course absolutely no reason why anyone, wherever they are, can't "scale their standards to whatever length is practical for a particular circumstance" anyway.
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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 05 Jun 2018, 08:49

In practical terms, of course; but in a Scottish grant which includes a standard, guidon, or pennon, the text of the grant specifies the size - formerly in inches, currently in metric. I don't recall seeing that sort of OCD language in Canada.

It would seem more useful if Lyon's grants specified proportions (hoist & fly) and perhaps .a maximum size.
Michael F. McCartney
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