Variety in standards

Heraldic flags such as banners, badge banners, standards, pennons, pincels ... Feel free to discuss and compare the flying heraldy used in any country here.
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 05 Jun 2018, 15:24

Michael F. McCartney wrote:In practical terms, of course; but in a Scottish grant which includes a standard, guidon, or pennon, the text of the grant specifies the size - formerly in inches, currently in metric. I don't recall seeing that sort of OCD language in Canada.

It would seem more useful if Lyon's grants specified proportions (hoist & fly) and perhaps .a maximum size.


There is absolutely no need to petition Lyon for a pennon (or for that matter probably also a standard and or guidon if one qualified) because once arms have been granted they can be displayed any way the armiger chooses. A pennon is just the shield and motto displayed on a colourful flying thing.

I believe that I have said this before (maybe even in this thread): It is worth noting that in Scotland, any armiger can have a pennon and (per a recent conversation on the HSS forum) "Lyon Sellar opined that it would be sensible for them to be assumed, as every armiger was entitled to one".
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Cheshire Heraldry
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Iain Boyd
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Iain Boyd » 05 Jun 2018, 23:16

MenkAndemicael wrote:Number 3 (Derwin Kah Wai Mak) seems odd.
Placing the motto next to the pole suggests it's part of the arms. Considering Chinese is read vertically from right to left, I don't see why it couldn't have been between the badges as normal.


I suspect that it was done so that the motto (placed on a white ground) would not 'disappear' when displayed with the crest - either to the left or the right of the crest - which is displayed against a white ground.

However, why the motto could not have been displayed on a gold ground between the crest and the badge is beyond me!

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Iain Boyd

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JMcMillan
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby JMcMillan » 06 Jun 2018, 01:26

Perhaps modeled after Republic of China/Taiwan military unit flags, which have the unit name inscribed in black on a white strip near the hoist.

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Joseph McMillan
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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 06 Jun 2018, 18:25

My impression is that the CHA mindset is to accommodate and honor non-European cultures, not force-fit them into a European mold. The vertical white strip at the hoist, bearing the Chinese writing, is both traditional in that culture (per Joe's posting) and doesn't interfere with European format of the rest of the design. It honors the Chinese element, rather than burying it in the diagonal motto ribbons where it would be less easily read and visually subordinate.
Michael F. McCartney
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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 06 Jun 2018, 18:53

From an American perspective, I certainly can't argue with Martin's arguments above re: size of armorial flags and freedom to adopt and display badges on them. But the prescriptive language in Scottish grants, while we may read as guidelines, is written as mandatory; and unless/until reviewed and changed on appeal, will be read and understood as a mandate, at least within Lyon's geographical jurisdiction.
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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 14 Jun 2018, 15:43

What does one use a standard for anyway. If they were used for battle, with all the knights and lords etc. having their own, then it makes sense to regulate size. If only to stop the knights from fighting over whose standard is bigger.

However, if you are just going to hang it on your wall then you want to scale it to the size of your wall. Like it has been said, the official sizes are impractically large. Probably the most practical one would be a small desk standard.

Even a strict interpretation of a Scottish grant containing a standard, would have to take into account that the grant itself contains a scale image of the standard. One could interpret that as meaning, the Lord Lyon only sets a limit on size. Even then, I think that is a leap.

Really, the origin of the prescribed sizes wants looking into. As far as the standards included on grants, it should be seen as provided an example that an heraldically illiterate person could take to a standard maker, and walk out with a standard. Or a beautiful picture.

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: Variety in standards

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 15 Jun 2018, 04:47

I personally agree with Ryan's arguments re: size (does size matter? ;) ) but I can see the logic in prescribing sizes for different ranks if actually used in a medieval military context.

At least in the Scottish and English context, Standards of +/- the prescribed length were headquarters flags for mustering and organizing elements of the feudal host in camp, or thus saith Learny & IIRC others, rather than on the field where other, more practical smaller banners, guidons, pennons, etc. organized the various units on the march or in battle.

Though I do recall reading about some small-s standards -- gonfallons/gonfannons mounted on wagons or carts - actually driven into battle to serve as a rallying point for the feudal or civic levy.

None of which (even if reasonsbly accurate ;) ) seems directly applicable nowadays, except perhaps at Scottish Games, Renaissance Faires, and SCA gatherings. Which I suspect is why Canadian "standards" look more like Scottish guidons.
Michael F. McCartney
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