my banner of arms

Heraldic flags such as banners, badge banners, standards, pennons, pincels ... Feel free to discuss and compare the flying heraldy used in any country here.
User avatar
steven harris
Posts: 170
Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 12:22
Location: Greendale, Massachusetts

my banner of arms

Postby steven harris » 20 Sep 2013, 15:27

Greetings to all and sundry!

I have just received the first physical representation of my arms! It is a desk flag is the style of a "banner of arms".

Image

This version is 4"×5". If I order more, I will probably use the 5:6 proportions suggested by Patrick Barden (1934-2001), who was well-regarded in the field of heraldic flags (as noted here).

Dr Barden suggested that: "The purpose of a banner is to locate and identify its owner and it is the visual equivalent of his name. Flown over his house, it identifies his property, elsewhere, it indicates his presence." Thus, I think that I shall use it over my desk at work, pulling it out in the morning and retiring it when I head home at the end of the day. :-P

The company that I used (deskflags.com) was great to work with. They had no problem with the flag being vertical as opposed to horizontal, and they have no minimum orders - I got just the one. They were also exceptionally quick - the time my from inquiry email, through their art dept, to flag-in-hand was only 7 calendar days. I'd have to highly recommend them!
Steven A. Harris, Associate Fellow
member since February 2008

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2705
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: my banner of arms

Postby Chris Green » 20 Sep 2013, 17:17

Nice. I expect there will be a few more enquiries going to the firm you used.

I can see why you chose an oblong banner. The proportions of the charges are more like those on a CoA than on a square, which the College of Arms would consider "correct". Quoting from Wiki:

Banners became available to all English armigers as a result of a report by Garter to the Earl Marshal dated 29th January 1906. The report stated that the size of banner for Esquires and Gentlemen should be considered in the future. Until that date they were available to all noblemen and knights banneret. In 2011, Garter Woodcock said that the banner for an Esquire or Gentleman should be the same size as a Marquess’s and those of a lower rank down to Knight, that is, 3 feet by 3 feet.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
Arthur Radburn
Posts: 773
Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 09:56
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Re: my banner of arms

Postby Arthur Radburn » 20 Sep 2013, 18:56

Very nice, Steven. What's the banner made of?
Regards
Arthur Radburn
IAAH Vice-President : Heraldic Education

User avatar
Kenneth Mansfield
Posts: 12
Joined: 01 Mar 2013, 22:17

Re: my banner of arms

Postby Kenneth Mansfield » 20 Sep 2013, 18:57

Lord Lyon gives the following on his website:
THE PERSONAL BANNER

This is often wrongly called a 'Standard' (see below). It is the personal flag of the owner of a coat of arms (an 'armiger'). It shows his personal coat of arms granted by the Lord Lyon or inherited in right of an ancestor, and protected by the Law of Scotland. The coat of arms fills the banner right to its edges, as though it were a rectangular shield. It is quite wrong to use a banner of a plain colour with the owner's arms on a shield in the middle. This would mean that the owner's arms were of that colour with a little inescutcheon in the centre. Nor should the external 'additaments' be shown, ie helmet, mantling, crest, motto and supporters. Its purpose is the location and identification of its owner, and it is the visual equivalent of name. No one else may use it. Flown over the house it denotes that the armiger is there, and as a house flag its proportions are 5:4. The size of a house flag depends on the height of the building and the pole, and it should be large enough to be intelligible at the height at which it is flown.

For personal use, the size and shape varies according to rank, as follows, excluding any fringes:-

The Sovereign : 1.50 metres square

Dukes : 1.25 metres square

Earls : 1.10 metres square

Viscounts and Barons : 1.00 metres square

Baronets and Feudal Barons : 0.90 metres square

Other Armigers : 70 centimetres wide x 85 centimetres high


5"x6" would be the same proportions Lyon recommends for armigers.
Kenneth Mansfield
VITAM FORTITER AGERE

User avatar
steven harris
Posts: 170
Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 12:22
Location: Greendale, Massachusetts

Re: my banner of arms

Postby steven harris » 20 Sep 2013, 19:06

Arthur Radburn wrote:Very nice, Steven. What's the banner made of?

The banner is made of a cotton/poly-synthetic blend. I'd have to describe the texture as having a "water-proof" feel to it.

Kenneth Mansfield wrote:5"x6" would be the same proportions Lyon recommends for armigers.

It’s interesting that a “house flag” is 5:4 while a “personal banner” is 17:14.

Those proportions are so similar that it is nearly a ‘distinction without a difference’. If we look at a flag that is 85cm in hoist, it would have a fly of 70cm if it were a “personal banner”, or a fly of 68cm if it were a “house flag” – hardly a significant enough difference to waste time and ink prescribing.
Steven A. Harris, Associate Fellow
member since February 2008

User avatar
Martin Goldstraw
Site Admin
Posts: 1092
Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 17:27
Location: Shropshire, England.
Contact:

Re: my banner of arms

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 21 Sep 2013, 11:11

Lyon's guidance (at least in regard to personal banners) is mostly ignored.

Image

The flag on the right is 4' x 4'

Image

Most of the flags seen here wielded by ordinary armigers are much larger than the dimensions recommended by Lyon.
Spot the deliberate error in the image above.
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2705
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: my banner of arms

Postby Chris Green » 21 Sep 2013, 11:31

The third banner bearer of the line of four has his banner inverted. One can discern a label at the bottom of his banner. Does this mean that he is surrendering or "in need of assistance"?
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
Martin Goldstraw
Site Admin
Posts: 1092
Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 17:27
Location: Shropshire, England.
Contact:

Re: my banner of arms

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 21 Sep 2013, 14:12

Chris Green wrote:The third banner bearer of the line of four has his banner inverted. One can discern a label at the bottom of his banner. Does this mean that he is surrendering or "in need of assistance"?


Well done, you spotted the unfortunate error. I am reliably informed that the armiger arrived at the start of the parade with his own banner (third in the line of four)and that of his father (the fourth in the line of four). When getting ready for the parade it was discovered that the banner of his father was complete with its pole but, unfortunately, his own banner was without its pole. There was a minor panic as the owner of the banner sans pole was the person who had been delegated to lead the parade with the banner of H.R.H. Princess Anne and time was of the essence. A hurried visit to a local retail premises was undertaken and a length of curtain pole acquired. The banner was hastily acquainted with its new pole and the parade began ...
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2705
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: my banner of arms

Postby Chris Green » 21 Sep 2013, 18:40

The puir wee laddie was clearly in need of assistance.

Call me a pedant (and many do!) but it strikes me as odd that a son should bear a banner at all in the presence of his father, attached to a curtain-pole or not. "In days of old when knights were bold" a son would have fought under his father's banner if both were present. If the son commanded the vanguard and his father the rearguard it would be different.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
Martin Goldstraw
Site Admin
Posts: 1092
Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 17:27
Location: Shropshire, England.
Contact:

Re: my banner of arms

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 21 Sep 2013, 20:46

Chris Green wrote:The puir wee laddie was clearly in need of assistance.

Call me a pedant (and many do!) but it strikes me as odd that a son should bear a banner at all in the presence of his father, attached to a curtain-pole or not. "In days of old when knights were bold" a son would have fought under his father's banner if both were present. If the son commanded the vanguard and his father the rearguard it would be different.


If you've got it flaunt it?
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk


Return to “Flying Heraldry”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest