A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Heraldic flags such as banners, badge banners, standards, pennons, pincels ... Feel free to discuss and compare the flying heraldy used in any country here.
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Chris Green
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A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Chris Green » 04 Dec 2013, 14:18

Vexillologists just love "what ifs". Now they are having a field day with the Union Flag - what if Scotland became independent?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25205017

I was hoping there would be at least one suggestion that showed good taste. I was disappointed.
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Arthur Radburn
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Arthur Radburn » 04 Dec 2013, 18:18

Chris Green wrote:I was hoping there would be at least one suggestion that showed good taste. I was disappointed.
As the designs were created to provoke discussion, perhaps they were deliberately made awful so as to elicit reaction.
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Arthur Radburn » 04 Dec 2013, 18:20

Chris Green wrote:I was hoping there would be at least one suggestion that showed good taste. I was disappointed.

As the designs were created to provoke discussion, perhaps they were deliberately made awful so as to elicit reaction.
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 05 Dec 2013, 12:04

Arthur Radburn wrote:As the designs were created to provoke discussion, perhaps they were deliberately made awful so as to elicit reaction.


Perhaps it is to scare any would be advocates of change.

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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Chris Green » 05 Dec 2013, 12:21

The current Union flag foxes most foreigners and many British citizens, so what people would make of some of the suggestions I can only imagine. Scary is an understatment. K.I.S.S. is a useful precept for flag design. Many of the suggestions could only be printed, never sewn as they are too complex.
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Jeremy Kudlick
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Jeremy Kudlick » 06 Dec 2013, 14:08

It seems to me that should the referendum be approved and the Union of Scotland and England be dissolved, then Holyrood would certainly press upon Parliament to remove St. Andrew's Cross from the flag. Then it remains to be seen whether the Welsh raise their voices to be represented on the new flag. Without Welsh representation on the flag, the design simply becomes Argent a cross and a saltire Gules.

I have found three different descriptions of St. David's Cross, Sable a cross Or, Or a cross Sable, and Sable a cross engrailed Or. I can envision a new UK flag of Sable a saltire Gules fimbriated Argent and over all a cross Gules fimbriated Or.
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Chris Green
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Chris Green » 06 Dec 2013, 14:51

Here are 25 more suggested designs from BBC web-site readers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25222891
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Chas Charles-Dunne
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Chas Charles-Dunne » 06 Dec 2013, 15:31

Jeremy Kudlick wrote:It seems to me that should the referendum be approved and the Union of Scotland and England be dissolved, then Holyrood would certainly press upon Parliament to remove St. Andrew's Cross from the flag. Then it remains to be seen whether the Welsh raise their voices to be represented on the new flag. Without Welsh representation on the flag, the design simply becomes Argent a cross and a saltire Gules.

I have found three different descriptions of St. David's Cross, Sable a cross Or, Or a cross Sable, and Sable a cross engrailed Or. I can envision a new UK flag of Sable a saltire Gules fimbriated Argent and over all a cross Gules fimbriated Or.


If independence is to stop the interference by Westminster, why oh why, would Holyrood do the self same thing and try and interfere in the running of another sovereign nation?

How many years would go by before the cries of "Hypocrisy" would finally die down, do you think?
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Jeremy Kudlick » 08 Dec 2013, 11:59

Chas Charles-Dunne wrote:If independence is to stop the interference by Westminster, why oh why, would Holyrood do the self same thing and try and interfere in the running of another sovereign nation?

How many years would go by before the cries of "Hypocrisy" would finally die down, do you think?

If Scotland were to no longer be a part of the United Kingdom, why should Scotland be represented in the flag?

Sovereign nations dabble in the affairs of other sovereign nations all the time - it's called diplomacy. I'm sure Chris is all too aware of the process. If you want examples, look no further than any treaty that has ever been created or the current negotiations over Iran's nuclear policies.

The dreaded cries of "hypocrisy" would likely come only from within the walls of Westminster.
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Jeremy Kudlick » 08 Dec 2013, 12:06

Chris Green wrote:Here are 25 more suggested designs from BBC web-site readers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25222891

Some of the submissions are pretty well done and seem well thought out. Others are just, well, :shock:
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