A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Heraldic flags such as banners, badge banners, standards, pennons, pincels ... Feel free to discuss and compare the flying heraldy used in any country here.
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Chas Charles-Dunne
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Chas Charles-Dunne » 08 Dec 2013, 13:11

Jeremy Kudlick wrote:
Chas Charles-Dunne wrote:If independence is to stop the interference by Westminster, why oh why, would Holyrood do the self same thing and try and interfere in the running of another sovereign nation?

How many years would go by before the cries of "Hypocrisy" would finally die down, do you think?

If Scotland were to no longer be a part of the United Kingdom, why should Scotland be represented in the flag?


Scotland is not represented in the flag. The flag is made up of the flags of St. George, St. Andrew and St. Patrick. The flag of St. Andrew is not the flag of Scotland. The flag of Scotland is a different colour blue - by Scottish law. The will of the Scottish people enacted by the Scottish Parliament and protected by the Procurator Fiscal of the Court of Lord Lyon.
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Chris Green
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Chris Green » 08 Dec 2013, 13:16

I have to say that I have never, as far as I know, come across diplomacy having a role in the design of a nation's flag. There has been a lot of table-thumping with regard to (FYR) Macedonia, but mostly over its name. During the Napoleonic era a number of countries adopted versions of the tricolore, but mostly because their pro-French governments wanted to indicate their revolutionary fervour, not because France made them. I am sure that the British Government did not make an issue of the Georgians choosing a flag based on St George's cross.

The Irish may have tried to persuade the UK to drop the St Patrick element from the Union Flag when the Republic of Ireland broke away from the UK. But if they did, they were told to mind their own business or simply ignored. According to Wiki:
When the British Home Secretary was asked on 7 December 1922 (the day after the Irish Free State was established) whether the Garter King-of-Arms was to issue any regulations with reference to the Union Jack, the response was no and the flag has never been changed. A Dáil question in 1961 mooted raising the removal of the cross of St Patrick with the British government; Frank Aiken, the Irish Minister for External Affairs declined to "waste time on heraldic disputations".

Should Scotland secede, the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland would I am sure make its own decision as to a new flag or continuation with the existing one.
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Chas Charles-Dunne
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Chas Charles-Dunne » 08 Dec 2013, 13:19

Jeremy Kudlick wrote:
Chas Charles-Dunne wrote:If independence is to stop the interference by Westminster, why oh why, would Holyrood do the self same thing and try and interfere in the running of another sovereign nation?

How many years would go by before the cries of "Hypocrisy" would finally die down, do you think?

Sovereign nations dabble in the affairs of other sovereign nations all the time - it's called diplomacy.


Yes. And sometimes it is called interference and sometimes it is called invasion. If Scotland gets independence (which is by no means guaranteed), I think that they will have more than enough to do than worry about than what another country has on its flag.
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Arthur Radburn
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Arthur Radburn » 08 Dec 2013, 15:28

Let's not forget, too, that the Union Jack forms part of the flags of Australia, New Zealand (and its dependencies, the Cook Islands and Niue), Tuvalu, Fiji, and Hawaii.

Were the ministers of the Queen of Scots to take issue with those of the Queen of the EWNIted Kingdom about the flag, they would also have to tackle the ministers of the Queen of Australia, the Queen of New Zealand, and the Queen of Tuvalu, as well as the president of Fiji and the governor of Hawaii.

There are also the Royal Arms and the Royal Banner to consider. Quarterly, I & IV England, II & III Ireland?
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Chris Green
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Chris Green » 08 Dec 2013, 16:04

EWNIted Kingdom
:)

The flag of Hawaii (Ka hae Hawai'i) is of course representative of a historic connection although not a colonial one. We can though, I think, discount the story related on Wiki that the King of Hawaii adopted the Union Flag after hearing from George Vancouver that it was his King's (George III's) symbol of authority. Vancouver visited Hawaii in the 1790s when the Union Flag had not gained its current appearance. Vancouver's flag would have looked like this:

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Hawaii:

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not to be confused with the East India Company's flag from 1801:

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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 09 Dec 2013, 12:30

I think the Union Jack is seen quite definitively as the British flag. Nowadays, I am told that British is said only be correct to refer only to Englishmen and certain persons in Ireland. Of course one could argue that, as Britain is a geological region, the Scots would have to move, to stop being British. Prior to the dismantling of British Empire, the term British had a much larger usage. Perhaps the dismantling of the UK would have a similar effect, and I suppose in a way it already has. I think this is relevant because the discussion of the Union Flag is essentially tied to the question are 'we British/English?'

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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Chris Green » 09 Dec 2013, 13:35

Prior to the dismantling of British Empire, the term British had a much larger usage.


Funnily enough it didn't.

In 1965, the historian A. J. P. Taylor wrote: "When the Oxford History of England was launched a generation ago [i.e. in the 1930s], "England" was still an all-embracing word. It meant indiscriminately England and Wales; Great Britain; the United Kingdom; and even the British Empire. Foreigners used it as the name of a Great Power and indeed continue to do so. Bonar Law, by origin a Scotch [sic] Canadian, was not ashamed to describe himself as "Prime Minister of England".

In Sweden virtually everyone would refer to the British Embassy as "den engelska ambassaden". When I asked a taxi driver to take me to "den brittiska ambassaden" he set off for the Russian Embassy.
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Chas Charles-Dunne
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Chas Charles-Dunne » 09 Dec 2013, 13:52

Ryan Shuflin wrote: Nowadays, I am told that British is said only be correct to refer only to Englishmen and certain persons in Ireland.


Who ever told you that is 100% wrong.

Yes Scotsmen and Welshmen and Ulstermen and Englishmen think of themselves with a national connotation, but they ALL think of themselves as Britons or British.
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 09 Dec 2013, 15:39

I used to say that I was British but have recently learned from the example provided by most Scottish and Welsh people I know: I now rarely if ever refer to myself, or fill in forms, as British. I am English, as they are Scottish and Welsh, and so I now always declare myself to be English. Returning to the subject matter of this thread, I sincerely hope that no one is wasting my hard earned tax pound on topics like this until we know the result of the referendum and even then, I believe that it is entirely unnecessary to alter the flag. The manifesto "Scotlands Future" states that "The Union Flag, could be used in Scotland as people think fit".
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J Duncan of Sketraw
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Re: A Union Jack "without the Scottish bit"?

Postby J Duncan of Sketraw » 21 Dec 2013, 04:29

Chas Charles-Dunne wrote:Scotland is not represented in the flag. The flag is made up of the flags of St. George, St. Andrew and St. Patrick. The flag of St. Andrew is not the flag of Scotland. The flag of Scotland is a different colour blue - by Scottish law. The will of the Scottish people enacted by the Scottish Parliament and protected by the Procurator Fiscal of the Court of Lord Lyon.


Chas, The flag of St Andrew is what is what is also known as the saltire they are both one of the same flag. What the Scottish Government did was to legislate and make the blue of the flag Pantone 300 a lighter blue than that often depicted on the Union Flag.

"The Flag of Scotland, called The Saltire or St Andrew's Cross, is a blue field with a white saltire; according to tradition, it represents Saint Andrew, who is supposed to have been crucified on a cross of that form (called a crux decussata) at Patras. The St Andrew's Cross was worn as a badge on hats in Scotland, on the day of the feast of St Andrew.[1] It is the oldest continuously used sovereign flag in the world, having been in use since AD 832 - or so legend has it." - Wiki

By the way it is only the "Union Jack" when it is flown on a ship guys.


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