Banners of British Royal Orders of Chivalry

Heraldic flags such as banners, badge banners, standards, pennons, pincels ... Feel free to discuss and compare the flying heraldy used in any country here.
Iain Boyd
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Garter Banners

Postby Iain Boyd » 07 Sep 2015, 22:50

Re the photograph of the arms in Saint George's Chapel -

does anyone know who the knights are / were - specifically, the bearer of the arms of an oak tree supported by two crows?

Also are the arms which appear to bear a reversed trefoil vert correct or has the flag been reversed?

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Chris Green
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Re: Garter Banners

Postby Chris Green » 08 Sep 2015, 06:35

I have split this from the thread about Sir R menzies CoA as it refers neither to him nor to Knights of the Thistle generally.

The picture referred to by Iain is this one:

Image

There have been only a score or so of Garter knights since WW2 so it shouldn't be too hard to find the answers to Iain's questions.
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Chas Charles-Dunne
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Re: Garter Banners

Postby Chas Charles-Dunne » 08 Sep 2015, 11:26

Well, here's a thing. None of the banners shown correspond with any of the current members.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_Knights_and_Ladies_of_the_Garter

Scroll down for depictions of their arms -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Garter#Armorial
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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Garter Banners

Postby Arthur Radburn » 08 Sep 2015, 12:58

These are banner of knights of the Order of the Bath. Several of them, including the one with anchors and the globe, can be seen opposite page 53 in Friar's New Dictionary of Heraldry.
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Chris Green
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Banners of British Royal Orders of Chivalry

Postby Chris Green » 08 Sep 2015, 15:36

To try to regain some logic to this subject I have now opened this thread in "Flying Heraldry" and moved the material from "Garter Banners".

Strangely the picture we now learn - thanks to Arthur's sharp eyes - to be of banners of the Order of the Bath, originated in a web-site belonging to Ian Brennan, one of the world's leading heraldic sculptors. It is labelled "Garter Banners", although another similar picture is correctly shown in the section on the Order of the Bath.

Here is a picture of Garter banners also from Ian Brennan's site. Note that the banner of the King of Norway is "show through" although the cloth of the banner is apparently double thickness silk.

Image
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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Banners of British Royal Orders of Chivalry

Postby Arthur Radburn » 08 Sep 2015, 16:35

Chris Green wrote:Here is a picture of Garter banners also from Ian Brennan's site. Note that the banner of the King of Norway is "show through" although the cloth of the banner is apparently double thickness silk.

If the banner is double thickness, then perhaps it is "double-sided" rather than "show through", as the design would have been embroidered or printed on both pieces of silk, one the right way round and the other in reverse. Probably a bit pricey, but then it is the Order of the Garter, after all!

Here's another photo of Garter banners. Note Baroness Thatcher's, first on the left :

Image

Some Bath banners. Those in the top right corner look as though they're printed on fairly thin fabric :

Image

Some Thistle banners :

Image
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Chris Green
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Re: Banners of British Royal Orders of Chivalry

Postby Chris Green » 08 Sep 2015, 17:33

I am not finding it easy to explain, but to me "show through" naturally occurs when a single thickness cloth is printed and the image can be seen mirror-wise on the reverse. Thistle banners are like this. "Show though" also appears to occur, as Arthur says, when the reverse of a double thickness banner is embroidered mirror-wise.
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JMcMillan
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Re: Banners of British Royal Orders of Chivalry

Postby JMcMillan » 08 Sep 2015, 20:12

In vexillology, it is taken as the default for charges on the reverse of a flag to be mirror-imaged from those on the obverse, whether printed or stitched on a single thickness of cloth or embroidered on two thicknesses. The term "double sided" is used for those exceptional cases in which the reverse is not a mirror image of the obverse, e.g., in the arms of Saudi Arabia where the Muslim creed must read correctly on both sides and the point of the sword must be to the viewer's left.

This, of course, mirrors (no pun intended) the correct heraldic usage, in which charges that face to dexter on a shield face toward the hoist or staff, regardless of which side of the flag they're on, and those that face sinister on the shield face toward the fly on a flag.
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