Holy Roman Empire

Heraldry of the German speaking countries
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Edward Hillenbrand
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Holy Roman Empire

Postby Edward Hillenbrand » 22 Nov 2012, 19:06

I have a question on titles granted under the Holy Roman Empire: who inherits these titles? Apparently some relatives of mine made a "unsubstantial" gift to the Holy Roman Empire in 17521 and the three brothers were ennobled. OK. Three at once, so do all the children get the Right to call themselves "Baron"? Also, is that the correct term? I could not find a title in the Patent of Nobility that I recognized, that could well be due to my poor German.

Thank you in advance for any advice and help you may have.

Ed Hillenbrand
Ed Hillenbrand

"Memento te esse Mortalum"

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Iain Boyd
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Re: Holy Roman Empire

Postby Iain Boyd » 22 Nov 2012, 20:19

Dear Edward,

Most patents of nobility do not include the granting of a title at the same time - which possibly is why you could not find any reference in the patent.

However, most do include the grant of armorial bearings.

A German 'baron' is usually described as a 'freiherr' and a baron of the Holy Roman Empire a 'reichsfreiherr' - see the Wikipedia article on 'freiherr' for more information.

Are you able to provide access to a scan of the patent of nobility?

Regards,

Iain Boyd

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JMcMillan
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Re: Holy Roman Empire

Postby JMcMillan » 22 Nov 2012, 21:24

Edward Hillenbrand wrote:I have a question on titles granted under the Holy Roman Empire: who inherits these titles? Apparently some relatives of mine made a "unsubstantial" gift to the Holy Roman Empire in 17521 and the three brothers were ennobled. OK. Three at once, so do all the children get the Right to call themselves "Baron"? Also, is that the correct term? I could not find a title in the Patent of Nobility that I recognized, that could well be due to my poor German.

Thank you in advance for any advice and help you may have.

Ed Hillenbrand


In most of Continental Europe, including the HRE, most nobles were untitled. If all the patent of nobility says is that they were ennobled, then there's no title that goes with it. The noble status was inherited by all agnatic descendants--i.e., all sons and daughters, and all sons and daughters of the sons, etc. It passed to but not through females.
Joseph McMillan
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Ryan Shuflin
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Location: Germany

Re: Holy Roman Empire

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 22 Nov 2012, 21:56

Another point of confusion could be that in English, nobility is often used as a synonym for the Peerage. On the Continent (France, Germany, etc.) there is a class of untitled nobility that had privileges and was regulated. The same class (called the gentry) is said to have existed in England, but had no special rights, only social status and was not regulated. Patents of nobility usually just confer this generic noble status and often as Iain pointed out, a grant of arms. Families thus ennobled would often add "von" to their surname.

Is this the patent you were referring to?
http://www.heinlenews.de/hilleb08.htm

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Ton de Witte
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Re: Holy Roman Empire

Postby Ton de Witte » 23 Nov 2012, 08:44

Ryan the url you used for the picture is the website http://www.heinlenews.de/hilleb08.htm

beneath the picture

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Ton de Witte
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Edward Hillenbrand
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Re: Holy Roman Empire

Postby Edward Hillenbrand » 23 Nov 2012, 22:53

Ryan, yes that is the Patent I am referring to. Our family tree does trace back to a Johnas born that year, no day/date given, and there are several other Johan Hillenbrand's apparently born that year. Our family history does not give a location except "Southern Germany", though I suspect Fulda as some cousins have lived there since before WW 2 and many Hillenbrand's are burried in & around Fulda. Of course, Hillenbrand & variations of it are as common in Germanic speaking countries as "Smith" is in the US.
Ed Hillenbrand

"Memento te esse Mortalum"

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steven harris
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Re: Holy Roman Empire

Postby steven harris » 05 Dec 2012, 20:56

My family lore has us descendant from a “von Hillis” line of the untitled nobility type - Prussian, I think. Someday I’ll hire a profession genealogist to sort all of it out. :)
Steven A. Harris, Associate Fellow
member since February 2008

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Edward Hillenbrand
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Re: Holy Roman Empire

Postby Edward Hillenbrand » 06 Dec 2012, 00:15

I always the loved the Grandmother that claimed we were descendant from Pope Gregory VII, a Saint. She was a "bit" peeved when I pointed out that he was against married priests and as a celibate former monk he had no kids. o.O
Ed Hillenbrand

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GJKS
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Re: Holy Roman Empire

Postby GJKS » 08 Dec 2012, 04:58

Edward Hillenbrand wrote: She was a "bit" peeved when I pointed out that he was against married priests and as a celibate former monk he had no kids. o.O


That's interesting as many popes were married and did have children, both within the marriage and outside as well.
Just how does one confirm / deny such skeletons in the family closet when it involves the catholic clergy?
When did popes actually become celibate by papal 'law' and how effective is/was that 'law'?
Regards,
Geoff

Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Holy Roman Empire

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 08 Dec 2012, 15:28

GJKS wrote:
Edward Hillenbrand wrote: She was a "bit" peeved when I pointed out that he was against married priests and as a celibate former monk he had no kids. o.O


That's interesting as many popes were married and did have children, both within the marriage and outside as well.
Just how does one confirm / deny such skeletons in the family closet when it involves the catholic clergy?
When did popes actually become celibate by papal 'law' and how effective is/was that 'law'?


There is an interesting article on it in wikipedia, and it appears that most Popes were celibate, of course the most famous ones are those that weren't.


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