Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Heraldry of the German speaking countries
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Chris Green
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Re: Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Postby Chris Green » 14 Jun 2013, 18:12

Chris Green wrote:Elaine
I would advise you to to step back from the the rain of well-meaning advice and just concentrate on what Peter Harling said:
Personally ... I would reconstruct the Seefeldt coat of arms by adding 'differences' (these will be explained to you if you decide on this route), the new coat of arms can reflect the family traditions of Seefeldt connection and your son would be able to pass this new coat down to future generations with pride!

A number of our members would be able and willing to undertake this for you.


Elaine: I would merely reiterate what I said a while ago and underline Peter Harling's good advice, which is well grounded in heraldic practice.
Chris Green
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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 14 Jun 2013, 18:44

Elaine Seefeldt wrote:

I've actually been ill,then on holiday and now returned. I believe someone thought I was an American,far from it, I am Scottish born of a scottish mother and German father. The family coat of arms I have has been passed down from my father's side. We received it when my Opa died back in the 50s and my knowledge is that it had been passed down throughout his family. My father did not have any sons hence why I passed it on to my son who has since birth the surname of Seefeldt and of course has the Seefeldt blood pumping through him. If he isn't allowed it to be passed to him being the only male left in our side of Seefeldt family here and in Germany. My father was the oldest son as was my Opa,my fathers last remaining brother died last year so where does it go other than to my son or myself. I have a copy of the family book which has information of my Seefeldt family dated back to 1700s....I would love to trace back further but its not so easy living in Scotland with all my elderly relatives that can give me more details of our family history,now dead and my German not so fluent. Internet was not around when my Opa had the family coat of arms hanging on the wall in the old frame so I doubt if he ordered it from there because it had Seefeldt as a name. I have no reason to doubt this Coat of Arms was one of my ancestors that it belonged too.


Under Scots law you should apply for a grant of arms. I believe Scotland accepts Coat of Arms by foreign right if they are old enough. (Does anyone know the cut off date?) That might be hard to establish. The IAAH doesn't really do genealogical research. However, there are plenty of organizations that do. Including the Westphalian Heraldry Society http://www.westfalen-heraldik.de/page4.html Be warned though, persons selling dubious coat of arms is not limited to America and/or the internet. Is there any name of an artist on the coat of arms your Opa had? What makes me suspicious is the story about the Baron gambling the castle. It is a story commonly given as an example of not true. (gambling a castle away was actual very hard, and in some cases not legally possible and wouldn't always cause a loss of title)

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Elaine Seefeldt
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Re: Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Postby Elaine Seefeldt » 16 Jun 2013, 03:11

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. I did say it was a vague memory of my dad saying that about the Baron, I was a child so he may very well be teasing me...I doubt if he or my German family were telling lies. It was either fact or it was my father teasing me. A black sheep of the family was included in this memory of the tale or truth and you have to remember its a vague memory..I am in my late 50s so its probably me thats got story confused in a mixed up way. I have a German passport and was accepted as a German to live and work in Germany back in the 70s even though I am Scottish born and live in Scotland as I have dual nationality and because of when my kids were born they too can take on the German nationality. The areas of my ancestors lived was Prussian Brandenburg. My family book is hard to decipher the Althochdeutsch but I have made out the little towns/villages of them. I wouldn't be buying a coat of arms since I have one already and its no fake. My father was born and grew up in Germany, my fault was I never got curious till last few years about the history of my family and I have recently lost my Onkel and my elderly cousin on Wednesday so I am seriously running out of people in my German side to ask.

Ryan Shuflin wrote:
Elaine Seefeldt wrote:

I've actually been ill,then on holiday and now returned. I believe someone thought I was an American,far from it, I am Scottish born of a scottish mother and German father. The family coat of arms I have has been passed down from my father's side. We received it when my Opa died back in the 50s and my knowledge is that it had been passed down throughout his family. My father did not have any sons hence why I passed it on to my son who has since birth the surname of Seefeldt and of course has the Seefeldt blood pumping through him. If he isn't allowed it to be passed to him being the only male left in our side of Seefeldt family here and in Germany. My father was the oldest son as was my Opa,my fathers last remaining brother died last year so where does it go other than to my son or myself. I have a copy of the family book which has information of my Seefeldt family dated back to 1700s....I would love to trace back further but its not so easy living in Scotland with all my elderly relatives that can give me more details of our family history,now dead and my German not so fluent. Internet was not around when my Opa had the family coat of arms hanging on the wall in the old frame so I doubt if he ordered it from there because it had Seefeldt as a name. I have no reason to doubt this Coat of Arms was one of my ancestors that it belonged too.


Under Scots law you should apply for a grant of arms. I believe Scotland accepts Coat of Arms by foreign right if they are old enough. (Does anyone know the cut off date?) That might be hard to establish. The IAAH doesn't really do genealogical research. However, there are plenty of organizations that do. Including the Westphalian Heraldry Society http://www.westfalen-heraldik.de/page4.html Be warned though, persons selling dubious coat of arms is not limited to America and/or the internet. Is there any name of an artist on the coat of arms your Opa had? What makes me suspicious is the story about the Baron gambling the castle. It is a story commonly given as an example of not true. (gambling a castle away was actual very hard, and in some cases not legally possible and wouldn't always cause a loss of title)

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JMcMillan
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Re: Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Postby JMcMillan » 16 Jun 2013, 14:30

Elaine,

What you probably need in Scottish terms is a matriculation of your existing arms, not a grant of new ones.

I would suggest your best course of action at this point would be to contact Lyon Clerk, Mrs. Elizabeth Roads, outline the facts of your case, and ask her what would be required for you to matriculate these arms in Scotland--what kind of proof of descent, what kind of proof of use of the arms by your ancestors in Germany, how far back you'd have to show use of the arms by those ancestors. The best any of us can do is speculate; Mrs. Roads should be able to give you authoritative guidance.

(The family traditions of a countship and of someone losing the castle to pay a gambling debt may or may not be true, but in any case shouldn't affect the armorial question, which is a matter of establishing the original user of the arms and proving male line descent from him.)
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

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Tomasz Steifer
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Re: Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Postby Tomasz Steifer » 17 Jun 2013, 16:14

Ryan Shuflin wrote:Are those linden leaves?


According blazon by J.B.Rietstap, yes, linden leaves, and not Seeblätter: Seefeldt: D'argent, à la fasce d'azur, ch. de trois feuilles de tilleul du champ, les tiges en bas.
regards

Tomasz Steifer
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Tomasz Steifer
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Re: Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Postby Tomasz Steifer » 17 Jun 2013, 16:35

Peter Harling wrote:...rather than go down that road, I would reconstruct the Seefeldt coat of arms by adding 'differences' (these will be explained to you if you decide on this route), the new coat of arms can reflect the family traditions of Seefeldt connection and your son would be able to pass this new coat down to future generations with pride!
...


I think Peter is a good idea. You should design the new coat of arms, referring, but not identical with the arms of the von Seefeld.
regards

Tomasz Steifer
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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 17 Jun 2013, 17:59

Elaine Seefeldt wrote:Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. I did say it was a vague memory of my dad saying that about the Baron, I was a child so he may very well be teasing me...I doubt if he or my German family were telling lies. It was either fact or it was my father teasing me. A black sheep of the family was included in this memory of the tale or truth and you have to remember its a vague memory..I am in my late 50s so its probably me thats got story confused in a mixed up way. I have a German passport and was accepted as a German to live and work in Germany back in the 70s even though I am Scottish born and live in Scotland as I have dual nationality and because of when my kids were born they too can take on the German nationality. The areas of my ancestors lived was Prussian Brandenburg. My family book is hard to decipher the Althochdeutsch but I have made out the little towns/villages of them. I wouldn't be buying a coat of arms since I have one already and its no fake. My father was born and grew up in Germany, my fault was I never got curious till last few years about the history of my family and I have recently lost my Onkel and my elderly cousin on Wednesday so I am seriously running out of people in my German side to ask.


I didn't need to imply anyone in your family was deceiving you and I am sorry to hear about your Onkel and cousin. Joesph is right, all we can do is speculate. The situation requires more investigation. I would encourage you to do some genealogical research, which even if you don't speak German, is still possible. There are many online sources and Germany is not too far from Scotland.

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JMcMillan
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Re: Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Postby JMcMillan » 17 Jun 2013, 21:35

Tomasz Steifer wrote:
Peter Harling wrote:...rather than go down that road, I would reconstruct the Seefeldt coat of arms by adding 'differences' (these will be explained to you if you decide on this route), the new coat of arms can reflect the family traditions of Seefeldt connection and your son would be able to pass this new coat down to future generations with pride!
...


I think Peter is a good idea. You should design the new coat of arms, referring, but not identical with the arms of the von Seefeld.


If Elaine is a direct descendant of the original bearer of the Seefeldt arms, why should she redesign instead of using them? Either way, if she's in Scotland she is legally obliged to do this through Lyon Office.

Also, I wouldn't put money on Rietstap's blazon being correct. He (or someone he relied on) could well have seen a picture and thoughy "linden," as most of us would. Siebmacher would be a better source for arms of German origin.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

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Elaine Seefeldt
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Re: Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Postby Elaine Seefeldt » 24 Jun 2013, 00:35

Thanks for all your advice, I'll get in touch with the Lyon Office. I've asked my son to look on the back to see if he can get into the back of the photo frame as its pretty old, see if theirs any details on back of Coat of Arms, he'll only do this as long as its an easy process without damaging it. I'll keep trying to dig into the family tree as its really important to pass on information as I should have sat down when I was younger and asked my dad so many questions. No point in my son feeling proud of the family coat of arms if we don't really try and trace back its history eh. I'll let you know how things progress. Thanks for your help.

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Edward Hillenbrand
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Re: Seefeldt Coat of Arms

Postby Edward Hillenbrand » 26 Aug 2013, 01:17

Elaine, a bit of "lore" from my German family. My Great-great grandfather came to the US around 1900 and claimed to be THE Baron Hillenbrand descended directly from Johann Hillenbrand who bought his title from the Holy Roman Empire in the 1700s. This story has been passed down father to son since then. My parents started in the family tree business in the 1970s. They did a great job tracing back the Hillenbrands to Johann born in 1753. Based on the information available to the historians my parents were working with at the time they felt that a direct relationship was more than probable.

Now jump ahead to 2012 and records on the internet. Based on MY research the probability that my line is descended from the Johann who originally bought the title is slim. Am I disappointed? Not really. While the "Hillenbrand Coat of Arms" is pretty cool, guiles lion rampant it is NOT MINE. It belongs to other relatives -- in German heraldic law the title and blazon passes to ALL male relatives. It has been used in various forms throughout the years in Europe from a Transylvanian Knight to a Baron who supported Napoleon.

So I designed a new blazon to represent myself and what is important to me & mine. It conforms to accepted practices for heraldry, especially as applied by many for Americans. It took me over four years of research and thought before I came up with the final design. If you want to be an armiger for yourself and your family then design a new Coat of Arms and include an aspect or two from the presumed arms. I think in the end you will be happier knowing that the new arms is "Elaine's arms" free and clear. Chris & Ian has well as a few others have hinted at this.

Good luck and feel free to ask -- that is what we are here for. ANd if your looking for ideas, go to the thread on the "meanings behind our COA", there armiger's tell THEIR tale.
Ed Hillenbrand

"Tempus Fugit, Memento Mori"

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