Bavarian Wappenbuch

Heraldry of the German speaking countries

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Chris Green
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Re: Bavarian Wappenbuch

Postby Chris Green » 02 May 2013, 15:17

A fascinating and historically valuable site. Thank you Ryan for letting us know.

Some of the crests are frankly silly, but I have seen some modern Scandinavian achievements that reflect similar taste in pottiness.
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Tomasz Steifer
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Re: Bavarian Wappenbuch

Postby Tomasz Steifer » 02 May 2013, 20:55



Beautiful armorial, I did not know it, thanks to the link!
I do not understand the term "frankly silly" from Chris. My mind, these coats of arms, especially crests, is a beautiful example of a typical German heraldry.

Interestingly, it is not at all coat of arms are placed lances with banners. I did not know that not anyone Bavarian nobleman had the right to a own banner.

Interesting also figures of animals, plants and the catafalque next to coats of arms. Coffins, I think, may indicate that family is extinct. But what means plants, birds and animals? Is that families symbols? (such as the British heraldic badges or Scottish preheraldic plant badges)?
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Chris Green
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Re: Bavarian Wappenbuch

Postby Chris Green » 03 May 2013, 06:39

I do not understand the term "frankly silly" from Chris. My mind, these coats of arms, especially crests, is a beautiful example of a typical German heraldry.


I was referring specifically to "some crests", not to coats of arms (members of this august association would never use "crest" to mean CoA or achievement would we?).

For example, no. 28 has a fleur de lis floating in the air; Graf zum Haag on p33 has a crowned child holding a feathered cap of maintenance above his head; on p37 we find a hunting horn with feathers issuing from its mouth, and below a couple of party hats; on p40 no less than three examples of an axe head balanced on what looks like a cake or pie but is probably a hat; at p52 an inverted pair of tongs with feathers issuing from the ends; on p58 again the axe head but this time with feathers coming out of it. The examples of bearded men are legion, as are horns, usually befeathered.

Personally I find that the monstrous crests detract totally from the arms themselves, many of which are classical in their simplicity. I almost missed for example on p34 that two families, zu Fraunhoffen and von Fraunberg bore rouge a pale argent, only the crests being different. It would be interesting to know how this came about and whether it indicated two branches of the same family (if so why no difference, who was the head of the family?) or a feud over who had the right to the ancient arms (a la Scrope/Grosvenor).

There is meat in this Wappenbuch for a lively discussion of why in the Teutonic world crests developed the way they did. Were such crests used in tournaments in the 16th century? (they would not - could not - have been used in battle at this late date). What was the German fixation with feathers, often protruding incongruously from other elements of the crests?
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Tomasz Steifer
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Re: Bavarian Wappenbuch

Postby Tomasz Steifer » 03 May 2013, 09:28

Chris Green wrote:
I do not understand the term "frankly silly" from Chris. My mind, these coats of arms, especially crests, is a beautiful example of a typical German heraldry.

I was referring specifically to "some crests", not to coats of arms (members of this august association would never use "crest" to mean CoA or achievement would we?).

Of course, I take care of heraldry 40 years, I know how it differs from the crest, coat of arms :)

For example, no. 28 has a fleur de lis floating in the air; Graf zum Haag on p33 has a crowned child holding a feathered cap of maintenance above his head; on p37 we find a hunting horn with feathers issuing from its mouth, and below a couple of party hats; on p40 no less than three examples of an axe head balanced on what looks like a cake or pie but is probably a hat; at p52 an inverted pair of tongs with feathers issuing from the ends; on p58 again the axe head but this time with feathers coming out of it. The examples of bearded men are legion, as are horns, usually befeathered.

Personally I find that the monstrous crests detract totally from the arms themselves, many of which are classical in their simplicity. I almost missed for example on p34 that two families, zu Fraunhoffen and von Fraunberg bore rouge a pale argent, only the crests being different. It would be interesting to know how this came about and whether it indicated two branches of the same family (if so why no difference, who was the head of the family?) or a feud over who had the right to the ancient arms (a la Scrope/Grosvenor).

There is meat in this Wappenbuch for a lively discussion of why in the Teutonic world crests developed the way they did. Were such crests used in tournaments in the 16th century? (they would not - could not - have been used in battle at this late date). What was the German fixation with feathers, often protruding incongruously from other elements of the crests?


You're right, when it comes to crest in coat of arms Fugger Family (No. 27), is an example of "paper heraldry", possibly because it is a ennoble bourgeois family, which initially did not participate in the tournament and did not use the real crest on their helmets.
The others are correct imho - just in a different style than a crests in British CoA. I think someone more familiar to the German heraldry, may seem strange crests in our Roll of Arms too :)
Interesting you put the question, where did you get the different style? Perhaps the reason we should look for in a real crests production technology? The British were probably carved from linden wood - like the crest in coat of arms of the Knights of the Garter in St George's Chapel. Maybe the German crests tournaments were performed in a different technique, because there were other, and besides - larger in proportion to the shield and helmet. Cennino Cennini (1440) in his "Trattato della Pittura" describes how making crests of leather and cardboard. Germany could have used a similar technique as the Italians? These crests were certainly lighter than the British, therefore they can be more, and the technique also probably influenced the style.
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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Bavarian Wappenbuch

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 03 May 2013, 15:32

I too wonder at the addition of so many feathers or linden leaves to the figures one crests. I believe that many of the first crests were feathers. After all, plumage on real helmets continues to this day. Animal figures on top of helmets also pre-date heraldry, although much smaller than those depicted as crests. They could therefore be combining a lot of styles and tradition in one crest. The ever present linden leaves probably have some symbolic importance lost on us now a days. Another thing could be the result of product differentiation. That is, an artist could have added the extra bits, to demonstrate his skill and differentiate his emblazonment from others. Do we know of earlier emblazonments without feathers and the like?

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Re: Bavarian Wappenbuch

Postby Tomasz Steifer » 03 May 2013, 19:44

Ryan Shuflin wrote:(...) The ever present linden leaves probably have some symbolic importance lost on us now a days. A(...)


Linden was a sacred tree in the ancient Germans and Slavs.
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