Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Heraldry of the German speaking countries
User avatar
JMcMillan
Posts: 548
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 22:33
Location: United States

Re: Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Postby JMcMillan » 07 Dec 2013, 12:00

Marcus Karlsson wrote:NB: In some instances I have kept the German territorial designation as I have found no good English translation.


Marcus,

The English translations of Markgrafschaft, Landgrafschaft, and Burggrafschaft are "margraviate," "landgraviate," and "burggraviate." Not that anyone who didn't already know the German terms would have a clue as to the meaning of the English ones.

For what it's worth, Freistaat is usually translated as two words, "Free State of ..."

For those who wonder, "Free State" is essentally a synonym for "republic," i.e., a state without a monarch. It was widely used as the official designation of the various German states (Laender) under the Weimar Republic and survives as the official designations of Bavaria, Thuringia, and Saxony. In terms of status within the Federal Republic, a Freistaat is the same as a Land. It's sort of like the use of "commonwealth" in the official designations of the U.S. states of Virginia, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts, a matter of form rather than substance.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2681
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Postby Chris Green » 07 Dec 2013, 13:54

I suppose the proper translation of "markgravschaft" is "marquessate" as a markgrav is a marquess. But as there was never a marquessate as such in England, the translation is purely artificial (a marquis/marquess in continental Europe was originally someone who was entrusted with a "march" or border land, but this was never the case in England).
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

Marcus Karlsson
Posts: 950
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 08:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 07 Dec 2013, 16:37

JMcMillan wrote:
Marcus Karlsson wrote:NB: In some instances I have kept the German territorial designation as I have found no good English translation.


Marcus,

The English translations of Markgrafschaft, Landgrafschaft, and Burggrafschaft are "margraviate," "landgraviate," and "burggraviate." Not that anyone who didn't already know the German terms would have a clue as to the meaning of the English ones.


Thanks Joe, now that you mention them I remember that I have heard of them.

For what it's worth, Freistaat is usually translated as two words, "Free State of ..."

For those who wonder, "Free State" is essentally a synonym for "republic," i.e., a state without a monarch. It was widely used as the official designation of the various German states (Laender) under the Weimar Republic and survives as the official designations of Bavaria, Thuringia, and Saxony. In terms of status within the Federal Republic, a Freistaat is the same as a Land. It's sort of like the use of "commonwealth" in the official designations of the U.S. states of Virginia, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts, a matter of form rather than substance.


OK, I did write it as one word Freestate. And you are right there are no juridical difference between the Federal States be they called Land or Freistaat or Freie und Hansestadt. They are just historical remains.

Ryan Shuflin
Posts: 487
Joined: 26 Jul 2012, 13:00
Location: Germany

Re: Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 08 Dec 2013, 14:36

JMcMillan wrote:
Marcus Karlsson wrote:NB: In some instances I have kept the German territorial designation as I have found no good English translation.


Marcus,

The English translations of Markgrafschaft, Landgrafschaft, and Burggrafschaft are "margraviate," "landgraviate," and "burggraviate." Not that anyone who didn't already know the German terms would have a clue as to the meaning of the English ones.

For what it's worth, Freistaat is usually translated as two words, "Free State of ..."

For those who wonder, "Free State" is essentally a synonym for "republic," i.e., a state without a monarch. It was widely used as the official designation of the various German states (Laender) under the Weimar Republic and survives as the official designations of Bavaria, Thuringia, and Saxony. In terms of status within the Federal Republic, a Freistaat is the same as a Land. It's sort of like the use of "commonwealth" in the official designations of the U.S. states of Virginia, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts, a matter of form rather than substance.


Although most Free states were republics, the Irish Free State and Congo Free State had monarchs.

User avatar
JMcMillan
Posts: 548
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 22:33
Location: United States

Re: Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Postby JMcMillan » 08 Dec 2013, 19:00

Ryan Shuflin wrote:Although most Free states were republics, the Irish Free State and Congo Free State had monarchs.


I guess I should have made more clear that I was speaking only in the context of German usage.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

Marcus Karlsson
Posts: 950
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 08:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 14 Feb 2014, 11:45

Image
Duchy of Saxony-Meiningen-Hildburghausen. The Arms of Saxony covering Fields V och VIII showing the Arms of the County of Landsberg. The other fields show I. Landgraviate of Thuringia, II. Duchy of Kleve, III. Margraviate of Meissen, IV. Duchy of Jülich, VI. Duchy of Berg, VII. Pfalz Sachsen, IX. Pfalz Thüringen, X. County of Orlamünde, XI. Lordship of Eisenberg, XII. Lordship of Pleissen, XIII. Burggraviate of Altenburg, XIV. filling, XV. County of Brena, XVI. County of Mark, XVII. Per Pale Lordship of Römhild and Princely County of Henneberg och XVIII. County of Ravensberg. Crests are from dexter to sinister 1. Duchy of Saxony, 2. Landgraviate of Thuringia, 3. Princly County of Henneberg, 4. Margraviate of Meissen, 5. Duchy of Jülich och 6. Duchy of Berg.

The Order is the Ducal Saxony-Ernestine House Order. sachsen-ernestinska husorden. Founded 25 december 1833 by the Dukes of Saxony-Altenburg, Saxony-Coburg and Gotha and Saxony-Meiningen-Hildburghausen in memory of the founder of the Ernestine Lineage Duke Ernst the Pious.

Image
Middle Arms of Saxony-Meiningen-Hildburghausen. Enschuteon - Saxony. I. Thuringia, II. Henneberg, III. Römhild and IV. Meissen. The lesser Arms was just the Shield of Saxony crowned.

Image
Greater Arms of Saxony-Coburg and Gotha (this tiny state produced Prince Albert consort of Queen Victoria of Great-Britain ect and perhaps lesser known the Mother of the Present King of Sweden Princess Sibylla). Enschuteon -Saxony. I. Duchy of Jülich, II. Duchy of Kleve, III. Duchy of Berg, IV. Duchy of Engern, V. Duchy of Westfalen, VI. Duchy of Coburg, VII. Landgraviate of Thuringia which also doubbles as arms of the Duchy of Gotha, VIII. County of Meissen, IX. Per Pale Henneberg and Römhild, X. Principality of Lichtenberg, XI. Pfalz Sachsen, XII. Pfalz Thüringen, XIII. Margraviate of Landsberg, XIV. County of Brena, XV. County of Orlamünde, XVI. County of Pleissen, XVII. Burggraviate of Altenburg, XVIII. Lordship of Eisenberg, XIX. County of Mark, XX. County of Ravensberg, XXI. Lordship of Ravenstein, XXII. Lordship Tonna och XXIII. filling with no meaning.

Image
Middle Arms of Saxony-Coburg and Gotha. Enschuteon Saxony, I. Thuringia/Gotha, II. Meissen, III. Henneberg and IV. Coburg.

A little Family history to explain the various lines of the House of Saxony (or Wettin). The Chur Prince Friedrich III (died 1464) had two sons Ernst (succeded as chur Prince died 1486) and Albrecht (or Albert died 1500). From Ernst stemmed the Ernestine lineage. His descendants Wilhelm (died 1662) and Ernst the Pious (died 1675) founded in form of thier sons the Ducal Saxon lineage. Wilhelm's son Johann Ernst founded the Saxony-Weimar lineage. The Sons of Ernst the Pious Bernhard, Ernst och Johann Ernst founded the lineages Meiningen-Hildburghausen, Altenburg and Coburg-Gotha. From Albrecht stemmed the Albertine lineage which was Chur Princes and later Kings of Saxony.

User avatar
Mike_Oettle
Posts: 129
Joined: 11 Feb 2015, 17:03
Location: Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape, South Africa

Re: Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Postby Mike_Oettle » 24 Feb 2015, 21:57

It is perhaps worth mentioning that while the Saxon duchies were merged into Thuringia, there was a part that did not become part of Thuringia. This was Coburg (acquired by the father of Albert, Prince Consort, in 1826). In 1919 the citizens of Coburg voted in favour of joining Bavaria, in which state it remains to this day.
One can also not dismiss Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha as only having produced Prince Albert and Princess Sybilla.
Before Albert there was Leopold, who first married George IV’s daughter Charlotte and would likely have become Prince Consort himself, had Charlotte not died in childbirth. He then had a hand in arranging the marriage of his widowed sister Victoria to Edward, Duke of Kent, which marriage produced Queen Victoria.
Leopold himself, of course, went on to become King of the Belgians.
Leopold’s daughter Charlotte was the consort of the ill-fated Maximilian of Austria, Emperor of Mexico.
His nephew Ferdinand married Queen Maria II of Portugal, and his descendants are still claimants to the Portuguese throne.
Also in 1826 a branch of the family inherited a Hungarian princely estate, Koháry, and converted to Roman Catholicism. One member of this family became Tsar of Bulgaria. Other members married princesses of Brazil, Austria, France, Belgium and Saxony.
Regards,
Mike
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life.
[Proverbs 14:27]

Marcus Karlsson
Posts: 950
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 08:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 28 Feb 2015, 16:54

You are of cause right Saxony-Coburg and Gotha had a much more influence than just Prince Albert and Princess Sibylla. And it was not my intention to dismiss this State in anyway, I just wanted to name some examples and took Prince Albert as he is surely one of the most known members of the Ducal Family and Princess Sibylla as I'am a Swede.

User avatar
Mike_Oettle
Posts: 129
Joined: 11 Feb 2015, 17:03
Location: Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape, South Africa

Re: Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Postby Mike_Oettle » 05 Mar 2015, 19:45

Regarding the noble titles, one could simplify the translation of Burggraf, Graf and Markgraf by referring to viscounts, counts and marquesses. But that is an oversimplification, because the complex German nobility produced several ranks of counts (no simple equivalence to earls).
Some counts were declared to be sovereigns, and were given the accolade Erlaucht.
While the title Markgraf originally belonged to a count tasked with defending a frontier zone, it was used by later emperors as a means of raising the rank of a count: the Margraves of Baden were certainly not frontier lords, because the Empire extended considerably further into what we now call France.
It is perhaps no surprise that the last Margrave was elevated to a Grand Duke, while in the same era the dukes of Bavaria and Württemberg became kings.
Regards,
Mike
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life.
[Proverbs 14:27]

Ryan Shuflin
Posts: 487
Joined: 26 Jul 2012, 13:00
Location: Germany

Re: Arms of the German Federal States (Bundesländer)

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 08 Mar 2015, 18:47

Mike_Oettle wrote:Regarding the noble titles, one could simplify the translation of Burggraf, Graf and Markgraf by referring to viscounts, counts and marquesses. But that is an oversimplification, because the complex German nobility produced several ranks of counts (no simple equivalence to earls).
Some counts were declared to be sovereigns, and were given the accolade Erlaucht.
While the title Markgraf originally belonged to a count tasked with defending a frontier zone, it was used by later emperors as a means of raising the rank of a count: the Margraves of Baden were certainly not frontier lords, because the Empire extended considerably further into what we now call France.
It is perhaps no surprise that the last Margrave was elevated to a Grand Duke, while in the same era the dukes of Bavaria and Württemberg became kings.
Regards,
Mike


The titles are often not translated, and for good reason too. A burggrave is not exactly the equivalent of a viscount, nor a markgrave of a marquis. What makes German as well as Dutch or Belgium titles problematic, is that not even all persons with the same title are of equal rank. Part of this is because, of the fractured nature of the Holy Roman Empire, but also the federal nature of the German Empire.

During the HRE, for the most part, imperial immediacy was most important, and rank could pretty much determined by one's representation in the Reichstag. There are cases, of vassals holding higher titles than their lord. After the abolishment of the HRE, certain families were granted the recognition as former ruling dynasties and social equals to the current ruling dynasties. Also, every remaining state could grant its own titles, and many did. This continued through the German Empire. Usually, rulers would only grant titles lower than their own. So that the kingdoms, such of that of Bavaria and Würrtemburg granted the title of Duke, but those who received it, ranked much lower than not only the ruling Dukes (such as those of Anhalt or Saxony) but also a mediatized count.

Not only that, but there are unique titles like Freigraf and Waldgraf, but graf is used in non-comital titles. Burggraf is, I think the most varying of titles, but I am not really sure. There are also titles like Schenk Graf, which is actually two titles, being the title of a hereditary Schenk or cupbearer who is also a count.


Return to “German Heraldry”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest