Coat of Arms from Augsburg c. 1730

Heraldry of the German speaking countries
Maurice Meslans
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Joined: 28 Oct 2013, 15:05

Coat of Arms from Augsburg c. 1730

Postby Maurice Meslans » 28 Oct 2013, 16:18

Your site was recommended to me, by another person interested in Heraldry.
I am an antique dealer, who specializes in silver, living in the USA. I am
trying to retire, and needless to say I also collect. Over the years I have
owned numerous pieces with engraved coat of arms. I used to know a person
who was very good at heraldry, who would help me out. But probably twenty
years ago he retired to the wilds of Australia. I occasionally keep pieces, especially from certain areas, because I wanted to identify the coat of arms.
Recently I posted about 7 of these on a German site: Heraldik. The experts
there identified 2 1/2 of them. I identified 2 1/2 myself, with what I learned there.
This one is German, or at least is on a piece of Augsburg silver c. 1730. . I looked at your site and found very few such postings, so I am not sure this is something that is of interest to your members. If this is not of interest or identifiable, I was wondering if someone could give me a description of the arms in German, as I am not sure I am using the right terms in searching.
Thank you,
Maurice Meslans
Ps I should have mentioned I also posted a coat of arms on the French section of this site, it may actually be German as it is on a piece of Strasbourg silver, so I invite anyone to look at it.
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Ton de Witte
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Re: Coat of Arms from Augsburg c. 1730

Postby Ton de Witte » 29 Oct 2013, 13:46

I don't get a German feel with these arms, more a low countries feel. The crown in the crest is interesting, three leaves and two pearls which excludes an UK connection (because then the crown would be on the shield). I have looked in the dictionary of de Renesse but couldn't find it.
Ton de Witte
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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Coat of Arms from Augsburg c. 1730

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 30 Oct 2013, 15:34

The crest is identical to that of Bremen.
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Maurice Meslans
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Re: Coat of Arms from Augsburg c. 1730

Postby Maurice Meslans » 30 Oct 2013, 18:31

It is quite frustrating to find so many coats of arm quite close, two towns in Alsace Frœningen and Richtolsheim both have a key in a bande. Of course like most towns these seem to be adopted arms of a relatively recent date. I guess I should mention that this is on a very large spoon 37 cm and on the opposite side of the coat of arms is a medallion of a crowned Roman Emperor. I didn't answer Ton de Witte's comment, because I know nothing about styles. I would say that while normally silver has a tendency to be sold to and engraved for a local client, Augsburg was known a major supplier to other European countries. If I had to guess I would say the chance that the owner lived near Augsburg is about 60-70%. I know that Keys were often used in ecclesiastical arms, but I hope I am right in presuming it is a lay person. I am not sure how interesting this subject is to the members, I have other arms I would happily post, some of which I have already determined. They can also be seen on the Heraldrik site, under the username labarbedor.
I am not sure about the rules on links but there is also a part of the 925-1000 silver site which is called "family crests". People regularly post both crests and coats of arms, and very few are identified. While it is a very good site, I would say they really need someone good on this subject to contribute some knowledge. I really know very little about armorials, but I am a dogged researcher and if anyone can send me in the right direction I am happy to look through on line sources. I of course tried Rietstap, but just did a term search. I also looked through quite a few German books, including ones on Bavarian arms.
Thanks,
Maurice

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Daniel Gill
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Re: Coat of Arms from Augsburg c. 1730

Postby Daniel Gill » 06 Nov 2013, 15:14

I think it would be worthwhile to try and identify as many coasts of arms as you can show us. As, undoubtedly you've realized, it's not always easy or possible. Despite that, I think I can speak for most of us, looking at the varied designs used over the course of history is itself a reward. What was that link to "family crests" silver?
(Fr.) Daniel C. Gill

Maurice Meslans
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Joined: 28 Oct 2013, 15:05

Re: Coat of Arms from Augsburg c. 1730

Postby Maurice Meslans » 06 Nov 2013, 17:54

This is a silver site that answers questions about marks, I am a contributor, unfortunately using the Username Francais. It is a relatively easy site to register with, and they are more welcoming than some others. I think I posted most of my unknown arms, on it, some of which I later figured out, or were identified by the German site Heraldik.
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=60
I don't believe any of the items I posted on it were identified by others, so I don't think they really have many Heralds helping out.
For example there is a listing marked Help to identify family crest, which looks like a coat of arms that should be easy to identify, I was almost tempted to try myself.
In another section of the site is a French plate I identified, but could not figure out the arms on it.
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34702
Again I will go ahead and post a few more I couldn't identify, but for most, it might be easier to visit the silver site.
By the way, back on topic. It was pointed out that Bremen's arms are very similar to those on the spoon. I know that Bremen used a key mark as a hall mark on silver in the 17th and 18th centuries, but from everything I can determine the current arms pictured here above wasn't adopted until the 19th century. It there some way of determining how they came to be formed?

Thanks,
Maurice Meslans

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Ton de Witte
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Re: Coat of Arms from Augsburg c. 1730

Postby Ton de Witte » 07 Nov 2013, 09:14

http://www.ngw.nl/int/dld/b/bremen.htm

The arms of the city are pretty old the first grant by Napoleon was in the 19th century.
Ton de Witte
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Maurice Meslans
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Re: Coat of Arms from Augsburg c. 1730

Postby Maurice Meslans » 07 Nov 2013, 15:29

That of course would be nearly a century after the spoon was made. I was merely curious when they were first used by the city, I think Napoleon added bees to an already existent arms, but I may be wrong.
There is of course a significant difference between the two arms. Outside of the band there seems to be a difference in the type of key. It seems that most keys in Ecclesiastical Heraldry have three dots on the bow or the bow in diamond shaped, either forming a cross. The key on the spoon has a simple round bow, which I would call a domestic or lay shape. Also the direction the bit points to is different. Up on Bremen's down on the spoon. This may not seem very significant but it differentiates between the keys used on the hallmarks of Bremen and Worms of the 18th c.
Maurice Meslans

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Chris Green
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Re: Coat of Arms from Augsburg c. 1730

Postby Chris Green » 07 Nov 2013, 17:42

Unless specifically blazoned (e.g. the ceremonial key of the City of Smallville presented to the city by Lord Smallville in 1694 ), a key could take any form. A heraldic artist might follow the precedent of previous depictions, but might equally choose a different design. There is no guarantee that the illustration would be of a particular key. The same would no doubt apply to silversmiths - while they might follow exactly an illustration supplied by the person ordering the silverware, it might suit them to express the key differently unless specifically instructed to the contrary (size for example might make it wise to simplify the design).
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