Audley arms query

[Cameron Campbell]

I've read a blazon of an Audley arms that goes like this; Gules, a fret of eight Or, a label Az. My question is: What does a "fret of eight" mean? Would someone here point me to a reference, or post a graphic, of what that would look like?
Thank you for any help.

[Torsten Laneryd]

I've read a blazon of an Audley arms that goes like this; Gules, a fret of eight Or, a label Az. My question is: What does a "fret of eight" mean? Would someone here point me to a reference, or post a graphic, of what that would look like?
Thank you for any help.

Azure Fretty of eight Argent four pieces one way and four the other.

[Iain Boyd]

Greetings all,

This appears to be another example of Victorian pedantry, although, I would agree with Torsten's suggestion.

'Fretty' is 'fretty' no matter the number of 'bendlets' involved. It is a matter of artistic license and the size of the shield and what can be fitted onto it.

"Azure, fretty argent" is the same as "Azure, fretty of eight argent."!

Regards,

Iain Boyd

[Chris Green]

While I agree that "Fretty of eight" may seem pedantic, it does ensure that the emblazonment looks like this:



and not like the Cave example below.

Wikipedia shows Audley as Gules Fretty Or thus (which might be described as "Fretty of six":



which is a very different coat to the "Fretty of fourteen" coat for Lowndes illustrated in Martin Goldstraw's excellent Cheshire Heraldry:

[Cameron Campbell]

Sorry to be dense, but exactly what is being counted when it says "a fret of xxx", thanks!

[Chris Green]

Sorry to be dense, but exactly what is being counted when it says "a fret of xxx", thanks!

Each "fret" or bendlet/riband. The word is the same as that used for the ridges on the finger-board of a guitar.

[Martin Goldstraw]

While I agree that "Fretty of eight" may seem pedantic, //snip//

which is a very different coat to the "Fretty of fourteen" coat for Lowndes illustrated in Martin Goldstraw's excellent Cheshire Heraldry:

To count the frets is indeed unnecessary pedantry and it was not done by the heralds. The lowndes coat illustrated from my website is quite possibly incorrectly tricked by daniel King in his roll of arms. he tricks it as Argent, fretty Or on a canton Gules a lion's head erased Or.
The way King records this coat, the fret is metal on metal so by contrast I have also illustrated this coat per the Visitation of 1613:

Lowndes of Overton
Arms: Argent, fretty Azure, on a canton Gules a lion's head erased Or.
Crest: A lion's head erased Argent, gorged with a wreath of olive Vert.



Burke records Argent, fretty Azure on a canton Gules a lion's head erased Or. This is confirmed by the Visitations of 1613.

A coat of arms with six, eight, ten or twelve frets would still in effect be the same coat and would be blazoned simply as fretty. I don't know who decided to count the frets or when this first occurred but it is completely unnecessary and the "Heralds" never do it.

[Chris Green]

A coat of arms with six, eight, ten or twelve frets would still in effect be the same coat and would be blazoned simply as fretty. I don't know who decided to count the frets or when this first occurred but it is completely unnecessary and the "Heralds" never do it.

That may well be so, but as I illustrated earlier, the Audley CoA depicted as "fretty of six" is very different to the Lownes "fretty of fourteen". If Argent three ermine spots sable is a different CoA to Brittany's Ermine, why should not, say, Argent Fretty of six Gules be a different CoA to Argent Fretty of fourteen Gules? Heralds have routinely allowed arms with (for example) lions in similar but not the same position as in the arms unrelated families. Why then should Argent Fretty Gules be the same CoA whether emblazoned with six or fourteen frets?

[Martin Goldstraw]

Chris, I think you are comparing apples and pears. Fretty is a descriptor of a coat of arms the whole of which is fretty so it really doesn't matter how may frets you have. Likewise a coat of Ermine field is a coat the whole of which is spattered with ermines so it really doesn't matter how many you have. An ermine can of course also be a charge in which case (obviously) the number of charges needs to be specified.

[Chris Green]

Chris, I think you are comparing apples and pears. Fretty is a descriptor of a coat of arms the whole of which is fretty so it really doesn't matter how may frets you have. Likewise a coat of Ermine field is a coat the whole of which is spattered with ermines so it really doesn't matter how many you have. An ermine can of course also be a charge in which case (obviously) the number of charges needs to be specified.

Of course I am comparing "apples and pears". "Fretty" clearly isn't "ermine". The point I am trying to make is that "fretty of six" clearly isn't the same as "fretty of fourteen", any more than "three ermine tails" is the same as "ermine".