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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Pacific heraldry

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 18 Apr 2017, 17:06

JMcMillan wrote:
Chris Green wrote:The latter is a proper heraldic badge, having been granted by the College of Arms


So until the College of Arms started granting them circa 1900, there were no proper heraldic badges? ;)


I'm quite sure that Joe's comment was tongue in cheek as we all know that most ancient heraldic badges were adopted by their owners long before heralds began to grant them. I'm not at all convinced that there is any necessity to obtain a grant for a badge from any heraldic authority (not even the tightly regulated Scottish one).

In a recent discussion in the Heraldry Society of Scotland forum I was reminded that Lord Lyon Balfour Paul wrote in Heraldry in Relation to Scottish History and Art, p.126: “What should be put on liveries is the badge which can be selected at the individual will of the owner.” I am of course aware that more recent Lords Lyon have lent the impression that they have assumed authority over the granting of badges (restricting the granting of them to certain ranks) and that very recently, post the Abolition of Feudal Tenure, a statement has been issued to the effect that newly minted feudal barons (Scottish) will not be granted badges (or standards) however, there remains a view that Lyon’s grant (or recognition) is not required; one writer participating in the discussion commented that “The fact that recent Lyons have allowed or disallowed badges is irrelevant because Lyon has no authority over them. Anyone, including post AFT barons, may assume badges at will, and if Lyon does elect to grant them, they have no greater authenticity than assumed ones. The Lord Lyon is King of Arms, not the Grand Panjandrum. Balfour Paul was quoted as an authoritative ( = knowledgeable) source.”

That particular discussion was of great interest to me not least because Balfour Paul’s authoritative comment brought me to the undoubted fact that for a great many years now I have had the quiet enjoyment of my own heraldic badge (and I have not sought “official” recognition of that badge from anyone as I have never felt that I needed it).
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Badges

Postby Chris Green » 18 Apr 2017, 17:42

I have moved to this new thread some interesting discussion about badges from Pacific Heraldry.
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Re: Pacific heraldry

Postby Arthur Radburn » 18 Apr 2017, 22:33

Martin Goldstraw wrote:... one writer participating in the discussion commented that “The fact that recent Lyons have allowed or disallowed badges is irrelevant because Lyon has no authority over them. Anyone, including post AFT barons, may assume badges at will, and if Lyon does elect to grant them, they have no greater authenticity than assumed ones."
No greater authenticity, but perhaps greater "snob value", if only in the view of the grantee.

Are granted Scottish badges hereditary? To judge from the wording of the patents, English badges (and the accompanying standards) appear to be hereditary, but Irish ones are generally restricted to the grantee for his lifetime.
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Re: Pacific heraldry

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 19 Apr 2017, 10:10

Arthur Radburn wrote:
Are granted Scottish badges hereditary? To judge from the wording of the patents, English badges (and the accompanying standards) appear to be hereditary, but Irish ones are generally restricted to the grantee for his lifetime.


They are hereditary.
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Re: Badges

Postby Chris Green » 19 Apr 2017, 10:20

English/N Irish badges granted by the College of Arms are indeed hereditary.
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Re: Badges

Postby Arthur Radburn » 19 Apr 2017, 16:08

Chris Green wrote:English/N Irish badges granted by the College of Arms are indeed hereditary.
Thanks for confirming this, Chris.

Canadian badges too are hereditary. The position in South Africa is not entirely clear, though. Badges appear to be hereditary (because there's no law which says they're not) but they cannot be registered by the heirs (because the Heraldry Act limits registration of inherited items to coats of arms).
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Re: Badges

Postby Arthur Radburn » 19 Apr 2017, 16:09

Martin Goldstraw wrote:They are hereditary.
hereditary.JPG

Thanks for the confirmation, Martin
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Re: Badges

Postby Chris Green » 19 Apr 2017, 16:57

The position in South Africa is not entirely clear, though. Badges appear to be hereditary (because there's no law which says they're not) but they cannot be registered by the heirs (because the Heraldry Act limits registration of inherited items to coats of arms).


But might they not be registered anew by the heirs as new badges? Or would they have to be differenced in some way?
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Re: Badges

Postby Arthur Radburn » 19 Apr 2017, 18:39

Chris Green wrote:
The position in South Africa is not entirely clear, though. Badges appear to be hereditary (because there's no law which says they're not) but they cannot be registered by the heirs (because the Heraldry Act limits registration of inherited items to coats of arms).
But might they not be registered anew by the heirs as new badges? Or would they have to be differenced in some way?
It may well be possible to do it that way. The Bureau has evidently had to be quite creative at times over the years, to get around restrictive provisions in the Act. It's largely an academic point, though, as relatively few people have registered badges. Heraldic badges have never attracted much attention in South Africa, and most of those that have been registered are impersonal.
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Re: Badges

Postby Arthur Radburn » 21 Apr 2017, 18:37

A number of English borough and district councils have obtained grants of badges over the years. They include :

Image
High Peak Borough Council

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Tamworth

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West Wiltshire District Council.

I wonder what they use their badges for, though. Do the council's uniformed staff wear them on their uniforms? Are they displayed on council vehicles?
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