Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

General Heraldry subjects
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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 09 May 2017, 05:20

Arthur & Chris - thanks!
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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 22 May 2017, 18:32

There is precedent for a quarter being granted in connection with a title in Scotland, but I think it is usually in connection with land as well. One example is the Marquis of Montrose. He received part of the abbey as well as a canting quarter. I am not sure if the arms were based on the arms of the abbey. The Duke of Edinburgh, quarters the city arms, but doesn't claim it as a fief. His wife of course owns the castle as the Sovereign.

I am not sure about the rules in regard to arms of petty dominion in Scotland, but in theory all of Prince Philips children would have a right to his arms, the Edinburgh quarter included. Something to remember when people mention a certain royal baby doesn't have arms.

Another thing to think about, if the British Royal house wasn't declared to be the House of Windsor, and instead followed the traditional dynasty naming scheme, it would be either the House of Edinburgh or House of Mountbatten (or arguably House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg) starting with Prince Charles.

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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Postby Arthur Radburn » 22 May 2017, 19:16

Ryan Shuflin wrote:Another thing to think about, if the British Royal house wasn't declared to be the House of Windsor, and instead followed the traditional dynasty naming scheme, it would be either the House of Edinburgh or House of Mountbatten (or arguably House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg) starting with Prince Charles.
Reportedly, the Duke's uncle, Earl Mountbatten of Burma, was very keen that the house should become the House of Mountbatten. However, the Queen ruled that it would remain 'Windsor'. She did later rule that descendants who do not inherit royal styles and titles would be 'Mountbatten-Windsor'.

'House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg' was definitely a non-starter!
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JMcMillan
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Re: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Postby JMcMillan » 22 May 2017, 21:34

Ryan Shuflin wrote:... in theory all of Prince Philips children would have a right to his arms, the Edinburgh quarter included. Something to remember when people mention a certain royal baby doesn't have arms.


If the same rules applied to the royals that apply to everyone else, this might be true, but they don't and, as far as I can tell, never have. If they did, then the current royals would have the theoretical right to quarter the arms of Tudor, Stuart, Wittelsbach, Hanover, and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, but they don't, for the simple reason that the monarch has both the theoretical and practical right to prescribe the arms of his or her children.
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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 23 May 2017, 16:18

JMcMillan wrote:
Ryan Shuflin wrote:... in theory all of Prince Philips children would have a right to his arms, the Edinburgh quarter included. Something to remember when people mention a certain royal baby doesn't have arms.


If the same rules applied to the royals that apply to everyone else, this might be true, but they don't and, as far as I can tell, never have. If they did, then the current royals would have the theoretical right to quarter the arms of Tudor, Stuart, Wittelsbach, Hanover, and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, but they don't, for the simple reason that the monarch has both the theoretical and practical right to prescribe the arms of his or her children.


My understanding is that the Royal Arms follow special rules. I am not sure what the claim is for the Wittelsbach arms is. Perhaps you mean Wettin? At some point though cadets inherit arms normally. I do know that the King removed the Saxon quarter from the arms of cadets, but that was an active act. The monarch can change the arms of her heirs, but she has to take action to avert the normal order of things. This is because inheritance of arms happens automatically.

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Re: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 23 May 2017, 16:42

Does anyone know if there is a 'letter patent for Prince Philip's arms? It does seem to me to be a very Scottish coat of arms. It limits the quarters, a quarter was added to show membership in "Clan Mountbatten" and it has a quarter to go with the title, which I believe Scottish princes and Lord Darnley.

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 23 May 2017, 17:44

Ryan, I think the point is that the ordinary rules of heraldic succession simply do not apply within the royal family, period. Whether that's good or bad, or historical, or as it should be, notwithstanding.

Which doesn't mean it's not fun to speculate!
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Re: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 07 Jun 2017, 15:52

Michael F. McCartney wrote:Ryan, I think the point is that the ordinary rules of heraldic succession simply do not apply within the royal family, period. Whether that's good or bad, or historical, or as it should be, notwithstanding.

Which doesn't mean it's not fun to speculate!


If so, then why?

My argument is that all of Prince Philip's children have a legal right to his arms. No doubt the sovereign can limit this right, but I am unaware of it being done. The removal of the Saxon arms from the arms of the Royal Family is precedent, but I don't interpret it as limiting the right of inheritance of future arms. They contain royal arms, but foreign royal arms, and there is no reason to suggest they are treated any differently than any other arms. There is as far as I am aware, legal mechanism barring his children from inheriting them.

There is also the recent precedent of other princesses that married. Really, the reason his children don't is tradition and common practice, not law. To assert, for example; that Prince George has no coat of arms, is disputable. His father and grandfather both have arms. And while one can say that he has no right to his fathers arms, Why can't he use his Grandfathers?

He is probably content, like his father was, to wait till a coat of arms is granted to him. I can imagine however, the next Duke of Edinburgh quartering his arms with those of Prince Philip, and not just the Edinburgh quarter. Hypothetically, I imagine a future descendent of Prince Philip, distant enough from the royal household to approach the College of Arms and request to register the arms of the Prince Consort with the Cadenced Royal arms.

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Chris Green
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Re: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Postby Chris Green » 07 Jun 2017, 18:46

Prince George is certainly armigerous. It is just that Garter has yet to receive the Earl Marshal's instruction from HM The Queen to undertake their commission.

As for the Duke of Edinburgh's children inheriting his arms,they didn't and won't of course because they are royal, and therefore inherit arms through the Sovereign, as HM The Queen's children and great grandchildren already have. The Duke may be His Royal Highness, but he is that by courtesy since he is not himself a member of the Royal Family except by marriage. He could under no circumstances inherit the Crown.
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Claus K Berntsen
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Re: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Postby Claus K Berntsen » 12 Jun 2017, 16:40

Chris Green wrote:He could under no circumstances inherit the Crown.

Well, he is the oldest living great-great-grandchild of Queen Victoria, and was number 556 in line to the throne in 2001.
:D ;)


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