Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

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MenkAndemicael
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Re: Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

Postby MenkAndemicael » 13 Jun 2017, 21:37

Ah,good point.
As per recent correspondence, given the choice of " "Thorny, Dovetail indented or even Maltesy,", Darrel Kennedy of the Canadian Heraldry Authority suggested "Dovetailed Indented" as the most descriptive and useful for an artist. Not sure how they'd know to indent the dovetailing rather than alternate dovetail and indent segments (perhaps that would be indented AND dovetailed?), but sounds otherwise clear. I certainly like the abstraction inherent in that as well. I'm still intrigued by "wattled" though.

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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

Postby Arthur Radburn » 13 Jun 2017, 21:52

MenkAndemicael wrote:Darrel Kennedy of the Canadian Heraldry Authority suggested "Dovetailed Indented" as the most descriptive and useful for an artist. Not sure how they'd know to indent the dovetailing rather than alternate dovetail and indent segments (perhaps that would be indented AND dovetailed?), but sounds otherwise clear. I certainly like the abstraction inherent in that as well.
Perhaps "dovetailed, each tail indented of one point"?

I'm still intrigued by "wattled" though.
Could be interpreted to mean the flower, though, rather than the thorns.
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Arthur Radburn
IAAH Vice-President : Heraldic Education

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MenkAndemicael
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Re: Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

Postby MenkAndemicael » 13 Jun 2017, 22:07

"dovetailed, each tail indented of one point"


I wonder if that makes clear that the downward facing tails formed in the negative space are supposed to be indented as well, and not just the upward facing ones...

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MenkAndemicael
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Re: Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

Postby MenkAndemicael » 14 Jun 2017, 16:45

This might wrap up the blazon. Maybe just needs the modifier of "flared" so it doesn't result in the straight-edge form used in vexillology. I think that's why I steered clear of this originally.

I'll consider all of your suggestions about whether or not to change the arms for a few months. Thank you!

Dear Mr Andemicael

Thank you for your enquiry.

I would blazon this division line as follows:

“… per fess swallowtailed Argent and Gules …”

I would not refer to it as Acacia thorns simply because there are so many different thorn-trees and succulents which have exactly the same graphic shape. They are therefore distinct but not unique. A swallow tail, however, is distinct an quite unique. Even though there may be birds with the same shaped tail the swallow is the bird renowned for this tail shape.

One could say “swallowtailed counter swallowtailed” but the counter is obvious therefore I did not mention it.

With kind regards and best wishes.

Yours Faithfully

M.C. van Rossum OMBB (Mr)
Deputy Director
BUREAU OF HERALDRY
T: 012 441 3261
E: MarcelV@dac.gov.za
W: http://www.dac.gov.za
Last edited by MenkAndemicael on 14 Jun 2017, 23:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Chris Green
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Re: Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

Postby Chris Green » 14 Jun 2017, 18:06

Mr v R may be an expert in heraldry but less so in ornithology. No swallow ever had a tail spread wide in the way your lines are depicted.

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Chris Green
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Apohypaton

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MenkAndemicael
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Re: Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

Postby MenkAndemicael » 14 Jun 2017, 22:56

i don't know. That's certainly what I think of when i think of a swallow's tail.

Image

Image

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JMcMillan
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Re: Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

Postby JMcMillan » 15 Jun 2017, 00:04

To me, "swallow-tailed" doesn't necessarily mean in the exact shape of a swallow's tail, but merely something forked into two points. Even in ornithology: this isn't a swallow, but it is a swallow-tailed kite.

Image

And a swallow-tailed hummingbird
Image

I think Marcel Van Rossum's solution is an excellent one.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

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MenkAndemicael
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Re: Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

Postby MenkAndemicael » 15 Jun 2017, 01:13

So close! Though I'm curious what they'll say about differentiating from "swallowtailed" as it is used in flags and textile patterns.
Image

I'm also not convinced "maltesy counter-maltesy" is incorrect considering the precedent set by fleury, potenty, crusilly and trefly,

or barring that,

"dovetailed, each tail indented of one point, counter-dovetailed, each tail indented of one point"

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MenkAndemicael
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Re: Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

Postby MenkAndemicael » 15 Jun 2017, 20:06

Maybe there's an argument for leaving 'swallowtailed' up to artistic interpretation. That's already the case with the different variants of nebuly and rayonny. It might be a nice thing:

Image

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: Considering the following change to my arms. Thoughts?

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 17 Jun 2017, 07:51

Both designs are attractive, but the alternative version shown isn't, at least to my eye, sufficiently similar to the original to constitute mere artistic license. However the blazon is worded, the original is basically dovetailed with notches, while the other is basically embattled with notches; two different partition lines. And the visual impact of the two designs is quite different. The original, as Joe noted earlier and IIRC as discussed during the design phase, gives a distinctive image of thorns, suggestive (to me at least) of a protective enclosure in an arid or desert context. The other version, while attractive, doesn't convey that imagery, at least to my mind.

As for blazoning, Mr. Van Rossum's "per fess swallowtailed" seems quite adequate. If more precision is deemed necessary, "per fess dovetailed swallow-tailed above and below" should convey the intended image, in terms recognizable to an artist; though I admit it lacks literary elegance! ;)
Michael F. McCartney
Fremont, California


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