Cheesman and Rennie
- Isaac M Schneider
- Posts: 68
- Joined: 27 May 2015, 23:42
Re: Cheesman and Rennie
Interesting discussion, both in terms of design terminology and in the comparison of such strikingly similar arms. Would be interesting to see more like these..
Isaac M. Schneider, Fellow,
IAAH Vice President Heraldic Education,
Jerusalem
IAAH Vice President Heraldic Education,
Jerusalem
- Kurt Alex
- Posts: 39
- Joined: 22 Mar 2017, 11:23
Re: Cheesman and Rennie
Better late than never
Perhaps not absolutely identical, but there are similarities. The "von Nimitz" family was relatively minor nobility (untitled) in Silesia and became extinct in the male line with Christopher von Nimitz in 1640 according to the information here (in German and Fraktur font just to make it interesting). No antennas in those days.
https://books.google.com/books?id=WZIaA ... tz&f=false
Regards from South Carolina
Kurt
Perhaps not absolutely identical, but there are similarities. The "von Nimitz" family was relatively minor nobility (untitled) in Silesia and became extinct in the male line with Christopher von Nimitz in 1640 according to the information here (in German and Fraktur font just to make it interesting). No antennas in those days.
https://books.google.com/books?id=WZIaA ... tz&f=false
Regards from South Carolina
Kurt
- Kurt Alex
- Posts: 39
- Joined: 22 Mar 2017, 11:23
Re: Cheesman and Rennie
I trust that the personnel responsible for checking the uniqueness of the arms to avoid duplication at least found this one for the following family
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrian-Werburg
Regards from South Carolina
Kurt
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrian-Werburg
Regards from South Carolina
Kurt
- Chris Green
- Posts: 3628
- Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
- Location: Karlstad, Sweden
Re: Cheesman and Rennie
I wonder just how much international checking is carried out. In earlier centuries none or precious little. Cheesman's arms were College of Arms, Rennie's Canadian Heraldic Authority and Andrian-Werburg who knows?
Chris Green
IAAH President
Bertilak de Hautdesert
IAAH President
Bertilak de Hautdesert
- Jeremy Fox
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 19 Dec 2017, 15:14
- Contact:
Re: Cheesman and Rennie
"Uniqueness" has always been (and can only be) local, i.e. within one nation, rather than international. The Scrope/Carminow decision showed that, for the sake of a peaceful solution, the heralds were even happy to allow duplication within the jurisdiction of one heraldic authority. Scrope, they said, were to use "azure a bend or" in England, but Carminow could use the same arms in the invented-for-the-purpose Kingdom of Cornwall.
- Arthur Radburn
- Posts: 1331
- Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 09:56
Re: Cheesman and Rennie
According to Wikipedia, the Andrian-Werburg arms are blazoned as "Im Deichselschnitt", which means "tierced per pall".
No conflict among the three arms, because the colours are different in each case.
No conflict among the three arms, because the colours are different in each case.
Regards
Arthur Radburn
Arthur Radburn
- Kurt Alex
- Posts: 39
- Joined: 22 Mar 2017, 11:23
-
- Posts: 167
- Joined: 15 Jul 2012, 01:48
- Location: New Zealand
Re: Cheesman and Rennie
Re the arms of Andrian-Werburg -
If one goes to the wikipedia article Kurt included with his post there is a copy of a bookplate of Freiherren von Andrian-Werburg dated 1692 - see below.
The arms surtout are different from those at the top of the article, but, obviously developed from arms in the bookplate.
Are the arms the same - I think not.
Are the arms at the top of the article a legitimate development of the arms in the bookplate - possibly.
Are the arms at the top of the article correctly those of the current family - probably not.
Unfortunately, I have no means at the moment to verify whether the arms of the family have been changed.
Regards,
Iain Boyd
PS to the Moderators - If the included image is too big or not otherwise suitable please remove or, preferably, adjust. This is the first image I have added to a posting and I am sure I still have much to learn. IWB
If one goes to the wikipedia article Kurt included with his post there is a copy of a bookplate of Freiherren von Andrian-Werburg dated 1692 - see below.
The arms surtout are different from those at the top of the article, but, obviously developed from arms in the bookplate.
Are the arms the same - I think not.
Are the arms at the top of the article a legitimate development of the arms in the bookplate - possibly.
Are the arms at the top of the article correctly those of the current family - probably not.
Unfortunately, I have no means at the moment to verify whether the arms of the family have been changed.
Regards,
Iain Boyd
PS to the Moderators - If the included image is too big or not otherwise suitable please remove or, preferably, adjust. This is the first image I have added to a posting and I am sure I still have much to learn. IWB
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
- Chris Green
- Posts: 3628
- Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
- Location: Karlstad, Sweden
Re: Cheesman and Rennie
PS to the Moderators - If the included image is too big or not otherwise suitable please remove or, preferably, adjust. This is the first image I have added to a posting and I am sure I still have much to learn. IWB
It is big, but had it been smaller we might not have been able to see the detail.
Chris Green
IAAH President
Bertilak de Hautdesert
IAAH President
Bertilak de Hautdesert
- Michael F. McCartney
- Posts: 437
- Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 23:34
Re: Cheesman and Rennie
I respectfully disagree with Jeremy Fox that arms "can only be unique locally." Clearly that was the case in the past, as far back as Bartolus and for the reasons he cited; but the world has changed even if the official heralds still generally operate as if nothing significant has changed.
In a world increasingly characterized by relatively easy and affordable international travel, by immigration and resulting multiculturalism in many parts of the world (Europe & the EU, the American "melting pot", Canada, Spain & Latin America, Portugal & Brazil, etc.), and of course the Internet, that old tradition of isolated jurisdictions - and in most of the world, the very notion of regulated heraldic jurisdictions - is seriously out of date.
Otherwise, it would be perfectly appropriate for folks assuming arms in any country to just drop by the library, or surf the Net, and assume for themselves whatever published arms in other "jurisdictions" that happen to appeal to them that haven't already been appropriated by one of their own countrymen. I rather fancy a nice combination of leopards, tressured lions, and a harp... Welcome to Heraldry Mill heaven!
Instead, we urge/insist that those designing new arms make a bona fide, good faith effort to ensure that the new arms are unique insofar as practicable. And given access to published collections, in print and online, that good faith effort is not limited by notions of "jurisdiction". Infringement is infringement (just as plagiarism is plagiarism re: academic and scientific work), whether the existing arms (or published research) are Swedish, Scottish, South African, Slovenian, Swiss etc. so long as they have been published in a reasonably accessible manner.
In a world increasingly characterized by relatively easy and affordable international travel, by immigration and resulting multiculturalism in many parts of the world (Europe & the EU, the American "melting pot", Canada, Spain & Latin America, Portugal & Brazil, etc.), and of course the Internet, that old tradition of isolated jurisdictions - and in most of the world, the very notion of regulated heraldic jurisdictions - is seriously out of date.
Otherwise, it would be perfectly appropriate for folks assuming arms in any country to just drop by the library, or surf the Net, and assume for themselves whatever published arms in other "jurisdictions" that happen to appeal to them that haven't already been appropriated by one of their own countrymen. I rather fancy a nice combination of leopards, tressured lions, and a harp... Welcome to Heraldry Mill heaven!
Instead, we urge/insist that those designing new arms make a bona fide, good faith effort to ensure that the new arms are unique insofar as practicable. And given access to published collections, in print and online, that good faith effort is not limited by notions of "jurisdiction". Infringement is infringement (just as plagiarism is plagiarism re: academic and scientific work), whether the existing arms (or published research) are Swedish, Scottish, South African, Slovenian, Swiss etc. so long as they have been published in a reasonably accessible manner.
Michael F. McCartney
Fremont, California
Fremont, California
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