Cheesman and Rennie

General Heraldry subjects
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Chris Green
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Re: Cheesman and Rennie

Postby Chris Green » 22 Jul 2018, 10:56

we urge/insist that those designing new arms make a bona fide, good faith effort to ensure that the new arms are unique insofar as practicable.


Hear hear!
Chris Green
IAAH President

Bertilak de Hautdesert

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Terry Baldwin
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Re: Cheesman and Rennie

Postby Terry Baldwin » 22 Jul 2018, 18:21

That is a bedrock piece of the association's design process. We use all available means to ensure that to the limit of our search capability, all of our designs are unique. That said, our resources do have their limits, we are not the College of Arms, nor Lyon House with their attached libraries. My library and what internet sources there are, are used to their fullest extent.
Regards,

Terry Baldwin
IAAH Vice President: Heraldic Design

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Kurt Alex
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Re: Cheesman and Rennie

Postby Kurt Alex » 23 Jul 2018, 01:48

For those who can read German, go to the link I posted under "Searching in Siebmachet" and enter Andrian in the lower search box for family names and press Enter on your keyboard. A list of blasons showing the arms over time will appear. The arms did change as the family climbed higher in the aristocracy of the HRR from untitled to titled (Freiherr/baron) nobility.

Regards from South Carolina

Kurt

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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Cheesman and Rennie

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 24 Jul 2018, 16:50

I know that when my own arms were designed, Norroy and Ulster said that he would first do a check with Lyon Court to ensure no conflict however, it does not appear that the process is reciprocated. Here are two instances known to me:

http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/weblog/ ... al-enigma/

http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/weblog/ ... al-enigma/
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk

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Kurt Alex
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Re: Cheesman and Rennie

Postby Kurt Alex » 24 Jul 2018, 18:08

Hello Terry,
See my PM to you in this same matter of uniqueness. Let me know if I can help to search in Siebmacher.

Hello Martin,
If I can help with searching in Siebmacher for you at the Armorial Register please let me know.

For both of you, Prof. Stoyan (formerly with the University of Erlangen in German, where he developed a massive database of arms) is still active in his retirement and has posted new searchable databases for Rietstap http://rietstapwiki.com/index.php?title ... :Recherche and Siebmacher http://www.siebmacherwiki.de/index.php? ... zial:Suche within the Heraldik-Wiki environment https://heraldik-wiki.de/wiki/Hauptseite. Search terms must be entered in French and German, respectively. Surely of interest to any fellow members here who can read French or German.

Regards from South Carolina

Kurt

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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Cheesman and Rennie

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 25 Jul 2018, 16:20

Kurt Alex wrote:Hello Martin,
If I can help with searching in Siebmacher for you at the Armorial Register please let me know.
Kurt


Most kind, thank you.
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: Cheesman and Rennie

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 27 Jul 2018, 06:34

Martin - I don't know how / if Lyon Office coordinates grants with the English College of Arms. I do recall that in the past (several Lyons ago) they would matriculate - not grant - arms previously "granted" by the late Spanish Cronista de Armas. (That is no longer the case.) I'm not aware of any coordination between the Cronista and the English heralds prior to a Spanish "grant" (certification) of arms claimed by e.g. an American. It may be that the Massey arms were first certified in Spain, and then matriculated in Scotland, rather than granted anew by Lyon - or maybe not.
Michael F. McCartney
Fremont, California

Ryan Shuflin
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Joined: 26 Jul 2012, 13:00
Location: Germany

Re: Cheesman and Rennie

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 10 May 2022, 11:21

I found two other possible blazons for the triangular chief. One is from the 104th Infantry Regiment, which is blazoned: Per chevron and enhanced Argent and Azure, in chief a cross Gules, between six mullets pilewise a crenelated torch of the first flamant of three of the third, and in base an Indian arrowhead point to base of the first The second is from the German language site Heraldik-wiki. In German, there is an ordinary called the Winkelhaupt, which could be translated to angle-chief. The Heraldik-wiki gives both an English and French translation of the ordinary. " frz.: chef triangulaire; engl.: triangle .. throughout issuing from chief" I am not sure where they got their translations though. It wouldn't surprise me if the Canadians were influenced by French sources. As far as finding a German coat of arms with a Winkelhaupt I have only found one, and it also goes too low, as the books explicitly say that it should not extend farther as a chief.

As far as the Andrian-Werburg arms:
Image
Heraldik-Wiki gives the blazon in English as "tierced in pairle in chief per pale" The German blazon is „Im Deichselschnitt gespalten von Silber und Rot mit gespaltener Spitze" It is hard to translate, but it comes close in meaning to Per Pall and Per Pale. Maybe Per Pall Argent and Gules, in Chief per Pale

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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Cheesman and Rennie

Postby Arthur Radburn » 10 May 2022, 13:35

Ryan Shuflin wrote:One is from the 104th Infantry Regiment, which is blazoned: Per chevron and enhanced Argent and Azure, in chief a cross Gules, between six mullets pilewise a crenelated torch of the first flamant of three of the third, and in base an Indian arrowhead point to base of the first
That's a good example, though the blazon should, of course, read "per chevron inverted and enhanced ..." :

104 Inf Regt.png
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Regards
Arthur Radburn


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