Historic Heraldic Authorities

General Heraldry subjects
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Chris Green
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Historic Heraldic Authorities

Postby Chris Green » 10 May 2018, 17:55

Please let us have any information (as posts on this thread) on historic heraldic authorities, the ones that have over the years become extinct, either because the country they served was swallowed up into something bigger (Germany, Italy etc), because their country's government concluded that heraldry was no longer something with which the state should be concerned whether for political or social reasons (Russia, Sweden etc). Links to websites, Wiki articles etc would be useful, and best of all the rolls of arms that they produced. Some of these authorities will have had their own coats of arms, as for example does the College of Arms. Images of these would be welcome.
Chris Green
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Bertilak de Hautdesert

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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Historic Heraldic Authorities

Postby Arthur Radburn » 10 May 2018, 18:46

Wikipedia has a list of heraldry authorities, past and present, which is a useful starter to this topic : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldic_authority
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Arthur Radburn

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Chris Green
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Re: Historic Heraldic Authorities

Postby Chris Green » 10 May 2018, 20:09

Thank you Arthur. I never cease to be amazed by what information can be found on Wiki.

I think there must be several more German heraldic authorities that are not covered in the Wiki article - Hesse, Hannover? And what about Bohemia?
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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Historic Heraldic Authorities

Postby Arthur Radburn » 11 May 2018, 18:57

Chris Green wrote:And what about Bohemia?

Well, seeing you ask, the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna has a collection of tabards and heralds' staffs of office from various parts of the former Habsburg empire. This is the tabard of the Herald of the King of Bohemia, described as being 17th century :

Image

And that of his counterpart, the Herald of the Kingdom of Lombardy-Venezia, designed by a theatre costume designer in 1838 :

Image

The tabard of the Herald of the Holy Roman Emperor, made in 1613 :

Image
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Terry Baldwin
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Re: Historic Heraldic Authorities

Postby Terry Baldwin » 11 May 2018, 21:09

Thank you Arthur most enlightening.
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Terry Baldwin
IAAH Vice President: Heraldic Design

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JMcMillan
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Re: Historic Heraldic Authorities

Postby JMcMillan » 12 May 2018, 04:18

It's important to keep in mind, in considering this subject, that in many cases the officials called heralds had little or nothing to do with granting or controlling the use of coats of arms. Conversely, there were officials who were not heralds that did have a role in what we now think of as "heraldry." Arms in the Empire, at least the German-speaking parts of it, were granted primarily by Hofpfalzgrafen (court counts palatine) who were vested with power to handle a number of issues of personal status, such as legitimations, adoptions, certifications of nobility, probates, etc., as well as the granting of arms. As I understand it, the various imperial kings of arms and heralds had more to do with diplomatic and ceremonial functions. I stand to be corrected on this, however, and am sure it changed over time.

Note that registration of arms in ancien regime France (and the preparation of grants of arms accompanying royal acts of ennoblement) was in the hands of the Juge Général d'Armes, not the royal heralds, from 1615 until the use of arms was outlawed in 1790.
Joseph McMillan
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Chris Green
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Re: Historic Heraldic Authorities

Postby Chris Green » 12 May 2018, 06:20

Good point Joseph.

I can't help chuckling that arms were being granted by "faceless bureaucrats" back at base. We all know what soldiers think of bureaucrats. At least heralds could be found at the front line in direct support of their monarch.

The problem that heralds had with the messengerial role that they had in the field was that they were not senior enough to turn it into a diplomatic function. They could convey a message relating to a forthcoming battle, but would not be able to use the opportunity to influence matters. Their role was, if you like, tactical rather than strategic. Only a noble (usually) with plenipotentiary powers granted by the monarch could enter into diplomatic negotiations.
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Isaac M Schneider
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Re: Historic Heraldic Authorities

Postby Isaac M Schneider » 13 May 2018, 15:30

JMcMillan wrote:Note that registration of arms in ancien regime France (and the preparation of grants of arms accompanying royal acts of ennoblement) was in the hands of the Juge Général d'Armes, not the royal heralds, from 1615 until the use of arms was outlawed in 1790.

Thanks, Joseph. So a French college of arms, that I understand existed until the revolution, had to do with grants or not..? And did they have their own arms or batons of office etc.
Isaac M. Schneider, Fellow,
IAAH Vice President Heraldic Education,
Jerusalem

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Chris Green
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Re: Historic Heraldic Authorities

Postby Chris Green » 13 May 2018, 16:22

Juge Général d'Armes:

http://portail.atilf.fr/cgi-bin/getobject_?a.64:28:5./var/artfla/encyclopedie/textdata/image/

I think the post was hereditary in the family d'Hozier until the revolution.
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JMcMillan
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Re: Historic Heraldic Authorities

Postby JMcMillan » 15 May 2018, 04:46

Isaac M Schneider wrote:
JMcMillan wrote:Note that registration of arms in ancien regime France (and the preparation of grants of arms accompanying royal acts of ennoblement) was in the hands of the Juge Général d'Armes, not the royal heralds, from 1615 until the use of arms was outlawed in 1790.

Thanks, Joseph. So a French college of arms, that I understand existed until the revolution, had to do with grants or not..? And did they have their own arms or batons of office etc.


As far as my poor French allows me to understand, the French College of Heralds was mainly concerned with other duties, but one of its duties was to keep records of the arms born by the nobles of the kingdom, and it seems that they may have been involved in ensuring that the arms of new nobles were correctly composed and didn't infringe the arms of others. But if your French is better, you may get more out of this paper on "The Office of Arms and Noblesse in Late Medieval France," https://www.persee.fr/doc/bsnaf_0081-1181_1996_num_1994_1_11506 The dating that the author give for the precipitous decline of the college would seem to coincide with the establishment of the new position of juge general d'armes, as mentioned by Christian Green.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA


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