Crest for female arms

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Wade MacTaggart
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Crest for female arms

Postby Wade MacTaggart » 25 Oct 2012, 12:59

I've always thought that women's coats of arms do not have a crest, except if they are entitled to supporters. Is that correct?
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Crest for female arms

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 25 Oct 2012, 13:21

Wade MacTaggart wrote:I've always thought that women's coats of arms do not have a crest, except if they are entitled to supporters. Is that correct?


Ladies are granted crests in Scotland. A quick search of "recent grants" in the College of Arms newsletter seemed to indicate that crests had not been granted but I did not do an exhaustive search. I know of at least one English lady who uses the full achievement of her father (she is his heir) and I know that she has done so with the full knowledge of the officers of arms without comment but whether they are granted to ladies or not I can't say with any authority.

Perhaps English ladies don't feel that a crest is a necessity (or are not encouraged to see any necessity) given that the eventual destination of their arms will be that they are quartered and it is not the tradition in England to use a secondary crest in quartered arms?
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
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Chris Green
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Re: Crest for female arms

Postby Chris Green » 25 Oct 2012, 16:39

Baroness Thatcher, who if anyone living is entitled to a helm and a crest to go on it, has neither.

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/thatcher.htm
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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Crest for female arms

Postby Arthur Radburn » 25 Oct 2012, 18:47

The South African Bureau of Heraldry has registered crests for women since the 1960s.

The College of Arms website states that a woman "may not use a crest, which is considered a male attribute". However, although they don't mention it, the CoA has granted crests to lady governors-general of the Queen's realms since the 1980s.

According to New Zealand Herald, crests are granted to GGs as the Queen's representatives because "as with the Monarch (Queen or King) there is no gender difference between the arms. Grants to other women, however, follow the usual customs in such matters (as in England)."

The Canadian Heraldry Authority has been granting crests to women since the 1980s.
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Marcus Karlsson
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Re: Crest for female arms

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 26 Oct 2012, 08:30

Arthur Radburn wrote: ... The Canadian Heraldry Authority has been granting crests to women since the 1980s.


Indeed Canadian anti-disciminatory Laws makes it as I understand unlawful not to grant Crests also to Women.

In Sweden Women can chose to have a Crest or not.

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Wade MacTaggart
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Re: Crest for female arms

Postby Wade MacTaggart » 26 Oct 2012, 11:57

Thank you, all. I've recently seen a coat of arms for an American woman with supporters and a crest; however, I know nothing of her background.
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Re: Crest for female arms

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 26 Oct 2012, 12:29

Arthur Radburn wrote:According to New Zealand Herald, crests are granted to GGs as the Queen's representatives because "as with the Monarch (Queen or King) there is no gender difference between the arms. Grants to other women, however, follow the usual customs in such matters (as in England)."


Unlike the Monarch however, the heir of a "GG" does not inherit the position and so, in my humble opinion, the gender difference argument put forward by New Zealand Herald does not hold up beyond the original grantee.

Wade MacTaggart wrote:Thank you, all. I've recently seen a coat of arms for an American woman with supporters and a crest; however, I know nothing of her background.


Without the fetters of regulation, an American woman may do as she pleases and only really needs to please herself.
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
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JMcMillan
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Re: Crest for female arms

Postby JMcMillan » 26 Oct 2012, 12:47

Wade MacTaggart wrote:Thank you, all. I've recently seen a coat of arms for an American woman with supporters and a crest; however, I know nothing of her background.


The supporters raise more questions than the crest. American women have been using crests since the era when the English heralds were laying down rules like these (17th century). Zieber mentions it in Heraldry in America. He doesn't like it, but he acknowledges it. For example, 9 out of 12 women's arms shown in the Gore Roll of Arms (ca. 1710) have crests, and one of the remaining three has a skull and crossbones indicative of a funeral achievement.
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Alexandra, Virginia, USA

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steven harris
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Re: Crest for female arms

Postby steven harris » 26 Oct 2012, 20:15

I don't see a problem with women using crests. Lady Saltoun has two!

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Jeremy Kudlick
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Re: Crest for female arms

Postby Jeremy Kudlick » 26 Oct 2012, 23:43

Marcus Karlsson wrote:
Arthur Radburn wrote: ... The Canadian Heraldry Authority has been granting crests to women since the 1980s.


Indeed Canadian anti-disciminatory Laws makes it as I understand unlawful not to grant Crests also to Women.


Section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states, in part, "Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability."

Since the Charter is Part I of the Constitution Act (1982), it would actually be unconstitutional for the CHA, and HM's heraldic representatives in Canada, not to grant a crest to a woman unless she requests that no crest be granted.
Jeremy Kudlick
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