IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

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Isaac M Schneider
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IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

Postby Isaac M Schneider » 11 Mar 2021, 12:19

Greetings to all,

Hope this finds everyone in good keeping in these times..

The past year certainly gave enough concern regarding 'crowns', nevertheless, I have been wondering about the nature of the central charge upon the association's arms. The blazon on the registration says "an antique coronet".
Alas, the standard sources used by the association's design team (Boutell's Heraldry, An Heraldic Alphabet by Brooke-Little) seem to disagree what such a coronet looks like.. Is it a circlet set with fleur-de-lis, as shown by B-L as an 'ancient coronet', or is it with the somewhat unusual circlet with a three visible tri-leafs(?) and smaller single leaf 'ancient crown' per the same Brook-little? (this version appears on The Heraldry Society's arms I've noticed).
Boutell's Heraldry seems to refer to the eastern crown (with the five visible rather elongated triangular points) as an 'antique crown'...

Am I missing something?
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Chris Green
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Re: IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

Postby Chris Green » 11 Mar 2021, 14:06

The "Eastern Crown" is definitely not the same as the "Ancient Crown/Coronet". The former is supposedly a European interpretation of the crown attributed to Zoroaster/Zarathustra.

Image

The latter is a generic western European crown such as would have been worn by a king in the early days of heraldry or pre-heraldry. This is an image of King Edward I of England which must date from around the time he was alive or shortly after.

Image

Oddly a picture of King William I (the Conqueror) dating from perhaps the 15th/16th century has him wearing an "eastern crown" and wielding a scimitar.

Image

I think I am on safe ground in saying the an ancient crown/coronet should be a band with 3 f-de-l or 3 strawberry leaves, no arches, jewels, or velvet cap. There is an excellent chapter on crowns and coronets in Neubecker's "Heraldry, Sources, Symbols and Meaning".
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Bertilak de Hautdesert

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Jeremy Fox
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Re: IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

Postby Jeremy Fox » 11 Mar 2021, 20:03

Edmondson, 1780 - "In England, (says Selden) the kings of the Saxon race had a crown after the fashion of other nations, at that time, being only a plain fillet of gold ; but king Egbert was the first that fixed on the circle, or fillet, with points or rays, (after the fashion of the crowns worn by the emperors of the east) and king Edward, surnamed Ironside, topped the points with pearl." True or not, this passage shows why Boutell (and Parker of the "Glossary", and no doubt others) equate the "antique crown" with the "eastern crown", it being the first form of crown used (in England) other than the plain circlet.

To be safe, I would say that a crown showing three or five points bottony would be the best representation of an antique crown (approximating to Edward Ironside's.) Points fleury might also provide the antique simplicity but a circlet with strawberry leaves would be just the object usually called simply a "crown" or a "ducal coronet."
Ethelred II at Sherborne.jpg
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Isaac M Schneider
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Re: IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

Postby Isaac M Schneider » 11 Mar 2021, 23:18

Thanks Chris and Jeremy,

Neubecker's book just happens to be the newest addition to my heraldic library..
Chris Green wrote:I think I am on safe ground in saying the an ancient crown/coronet should be a band with 3 f-de-l or 3 strawberry leaves, no arches, jewels, or velvet cap.

Interesting option - the strawberry leaves, as founder Steven Madewell has for arms: Or, an Escutcheon Gules charged with a ducal Coronet Or between eight Martletts in orle Azure. (my blazon based on memory, but searchable elsewhere in this forum). Anyway, I'm sure the two blazons are connected, and if so, this gives the rather standard ducal coronet an advantage..
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Isaac M Schneider
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Re: IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

Postby Isaac M Schneider » 22 Apr 2021, 09:43

The reason for my query, a hatched version of the association arms.. Had to remodel the coronet twice.
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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 26 Apr 2021, 01:36

Could someone post an image of the South African confirmation? To my mind, a ducal coronet would have stylized strawberry leaves rather than fleurs de lis as in Isaac's rendition, but my memory is sometimes (OK, all too often) imperfect...
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Re: IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

Postby Jeremy Fox » 26 Apr 2021, 11:45

There is an image of the SA registration on the home page of the IAAH website. The picture shows a coronet with fleurs-de-lys, blazoned as "an antique coronet."

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Re: IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

Postby Chris Green » 26 Apr 2021, 12:07

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Re: IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

Postby Chris Green » 26 Apr 2021, 12:08

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Isaac M Schneider
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Re: IAAH arms - Coronet specifics

Postby Isaac M Schneider » 13 May 2021, 21:21

Michael F. McCartney wrote:Could someone post an image of the South African confirmation? To my mind, a ducal coronet would have stylized strawberry leaves rather than fleurs de lis as in Isaac's rendition, but my memory is sometimes (OK, all too often) imperfect...

Indeed Michael, a Ducal Coronet has Strawberry leaves. The original question was regarding the specifics of the coronet on the IAAH arms, which are not a Ducal, but Antique coronet. The hatched sketch I did reflects this Antique type..

Sorry for the belated reply..

Come to think of it, shouldn't I receive some heads up when I get a reply to a message of mine?? :?
Isaac M. Schneider, Fellow,
IAAH Vice President Heraldic Education,
Jerusalem


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