Other European Royal livery colours?

[Jonathan Webster]

I'm aware the British Royal family uses livery colours, but do any of the other European Royal families (whether ruling or deposed) use them, and if so, what are they?

[Chas Charles-Dunne]

I'm aware the British Royal family uses livery colours, but do any of the other European Royal families (whether ruling or deposed) use them, and if so, what are they?

Which are these livery colours?

And what does "Other European Royal laWW . .WEBb BM bob BMivery colours?" mean?

[Jonathan Webster]

'Other European Royal livery colours', I'm using my phone and hit a button with my thumb and didn't realise until after I'd submitted my post.

The British royal livery colours are (now) Gules and Sable off the top of my head. Hence the colours of the uniforms of the uniforms of the Royal Guards regiments and the Royal Household. The English/British Royal family has used other livery colours during previous royal dynasties, for example the House of York used Murrey as one of their livery colours, and the House of Tudor used Argent and Vert.

[Chas Charles-Dunne]

I don't think that is right. The Guards are regiments of the Army and the majority of regiments do not wear scarlet. I think that the whole notion of livery colours is for the most part fantasy.

Although the oath is sworn to the sovereign, since the restitution the Army comes under the control of Parliament. It would matter not to them what colours the sovereign had.

Whereas the the Royal Navy is a Royal Peculiar and is under the control of the Monarch. They have never worn a scarlet tunic.

When the Royal Air Force was created in 1918 it was just as cheap to dye cloth scarlet as it was to dye it RAF blue grey, but they never did.

Do you have any references or citations for this?

[Jonathan Webster]

Well, I can't say for definite about the Armed forces that wear red and sable, but certainly it is true of the Yeoman of the Guard.

Historically, (pre-circa 1500) the retainers of an important armigerous person would have worn tunics and trousers in the Livery colours of The Lord , with the badge of their Lord on their tunics to identify them. In the case of the Yeoman of the Guard, they still wear the Badge of their Lord (the Queen)- the plant badge of the United Kingdom (a Tudor Rose, Thistle and shamrock conjoined on one stem) is shown on their tunics.

'The Concise Encyclopedia of Heraldry' by Guy Cadogan Rothery provides a helpful list on 269:

"ENGLISH ROYAL LIVERY COLOURS

Plantagenets to 1399, white and scarlet
House of York, murrey and blue
House of Lancaster, white and blue
House of Tudor, white and green.
From the advent of the Stuarts the royal livery dress colours have been gold and scarlet; undress scarlet and blue."

-Which is repeated almost word-for-word in 'Heraldic Badges' and 'The Art of Heraldry' by Arthur Charles Fox Davies, who points out this is the reason the Yeoman of the Guard and the Royal Household's uniforms are scarlet with gold facings.

[Chas Charles-Dunne]

Which is repeated almost word-for-word in 'Heraldic Badges' and 'The Art of Heraldry' by Arthur Charles Fox Davies, who points out this is the reason the Yeoman of the Guard and the Royal Household's uniforms are scarlet with gold facings.

I don't know why heraldry attracts so many plagiarists. This happens so often, well known names lifting whole chunks of material from other writers. Even down to copying the line drawings and spelling mistakes. I have half a dozen editions of Boutell's, with somebody else's introduction.

The thing is that there is not one recognisable artefact that could be said to be in livery colours. Surely if this was a wide spread practice amongst the upper nobility, they would have started with their own private servants. But, no. Victoria's staff wore their own clothes. When their own clothes wore out, they would purchase new from the butler or housekeeper. Maids (upstairs and downstairs, pantry and scullery) would wear a black dress, white blouse and white over apron - just like every other maid in the country. That's how everybody could tell that they were maids.

Domestic servants have worn the same working dress colours for about 200+, with no livery colours in sight.

As I said, I think it is fantasy - like a lot else we hear about in heraldry.

[JMcMillan]

The uniform of the Guards is neither Gules and Sable nor scarlet with gold facings. It is scarlet with blue--very dark blue--facings.

[Jonathan Webster]

@Chas; Fox-Davies sort of addresses this issue in 'Heraldic Badges', and takes the view that the decline in use in liveries-something that was supposed to go hand-in-hand with the use of badges, declined as the heraldic badge declined in use and popularity amongst the Armigerous-he also deplores such practices as putting an armiger's crest instead of a badge on his servant's coat buttons. But he does refer to a 'heyday' of the use of badges and liveries-the Wars of the Roses basically-where he viewed them as being used in the same way as the Yeomen of the Guard do today-the armigers colours were worn on their retainer's tunic, on which was the badge of their master. Whether any of this was actually the case is of course open to question, but it was the period circa 1350-circa 1500 Fox-Davies was talking about rather than his own time (he was writing in 1906/1907-the year in which the College of Arms began to start granting and exemplifying heraldic badges again )-he recognised that the use of badges by Armigerous people had declined since then, and along with it the use of livery colours (if indeed they were used at all.) He just cited the Yeomen of the Guard as a modern survival of this practice.

[Jonathan Webster]

The uniform of the Guards is neither Gules and Sable nor scarlet with gold facings. It is scarlet with blue--very dark blue--facings.

No, but the trousers are black.

[Jonathan Webster]

The uniforms Fox-Davies referred to were the scarlet-with gold facings uniforms worn by the Great Officers of State such as the Earl Marshal and the Lord Great Chamberlain during the State opening of Parliament, as well as by the Heralds underneath their tabards-a form of Court Uniform unique to them.