Railway/Railroad Heraldry

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Chris Green
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Re: Railway/Railroad Heraldry

Postby Chris Green » 29 Jun 2014, 17:48

JMcMillan wrote:It would have been very interesting if the two sets of city fathers had taken this to the Court of Chivalry, since the crest of London was said as late as 1915 (by Fox-Davies) to be "of no authority," because not recorded in the College of Arms, and the arms of Birmingham (again according to F-D), were not granted until 1889. Before 1889, the city simply used the arms of the family of de Birmingham, who had once held the manor from which the village, town, borough, and eventually city took its name.


I wouldn't have put any money on the City of London losing a case at the Court of Chivalry over its CoA at any date. Despite the College's royal links, with the College building situated within the City and having enormous financial clout, the City Fathers held most if not all the trumps. In any case Kings of Arms of later date than F-D clearly did not agree with him as they were happy to grant Letters Patent in 1957 confirming the crest and supporters which had been in use since the 17th century. They could hardly do that while rejecting the validity of the CoA. You are absolutely right about Birmingham.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Bertilak de Hautdesert

Ryan Shuflin
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Joined: 26 Jul 2012, 13:00
Location: Germany

Re: Railway/Railroad Heraldry

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 10 Jul 2014, 02:23

Chris Green wrote:
JMcMillan wrote:It would have been very interesting if the two sets of city fathers had taken this to the Court of Chivalry, since the crest of London was said as late as 1915 (by Fox-Davies) to be "of no authority," because not recorded in the College of Arms, and the arms of Birmingham (again according to F-D), were not granted until 1889. Before 1889, the city simply used the arms of the family of de Birmingham, who had once held the manor from which the village, town, borough, and eventually city took its name.


I wouldn't have put any money on the City of London losing a case at the Court of Chivalry over its CoA at any date. Despite the College's royal links, with the College building situated within the City and having enormous financial clout, the City Fathers held most if not all the trumps. In any case Kings of Arms of later date than F-D clearly did not agree with him as they were happy to grant Letters Patent in 1957 confirming the crest and supporters which had been in use since the 17th century. They could hardly do that while rejecting the validity of the CoA. You are absolutely right about Birmingham.


I think it would only be an issue, if someone else had the arms. I am not sure who could take the City of London to Court, perhaps the Earl Marshall? but it would have been easy enough for the city to get their arms granted prior to any trial.

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Chris Green
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Re: Railway/Railroad Heraldry

Postby Chris Green » 10 Jul 2014, 05:42

I think it would only be an issue, if someone else had the arms. I am not sure who could take the City of London to Court, perhaps the Earl Marshal? but it would have been easy enough for the city to get their arms granted prior to any trial.


We are steaming smartly away from the wayside halt of railway heraldry into the long dark tunnel that is the role of the Court of Chivalry and how the College of Arms might be considered prosecutor, judge and executioner in matters heraldic. If anyone wishes to enter that smoky tunnel I propose that we start a new thread.

As far as the City of London's arms are concerned, even the most pedantic Officers of Arms could hardly fault the City for its heraldic taste, nor its ancient usage. A fight between the Earl Marshal and the College of Arms and the Lord Mayor and Aldermen was never going to happen. A contest between the College of Arms and one of the railway companies however could have taken place if one of the cities whose arms had been usurped had made enough fuss. But the cities needed the railways more than they needed to preserve their heraldic rights.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Bertilak de Hautdesert


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