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[andrewkerensky]

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[andrewkerensky]

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[Chris Green]

To us Sassenachs some Scots seem to make such a fuss over feudal baronies, often involving little more than ownership of a stretch of windswept sheep pasture and a modest house, that it is hardly surprising that Esquires have never had any cachet north of the border. That is of course a typically English-orientated point of view and unworthy of a former British diplomat (who often thinks it is high time he researched his Scottish ancestry on his mother's side).

PS: Anyone who wants to discuss feudal baronies, please start a new thread.

[Martin Goldstraw]

//snip// feudal baronies, often involving little more than ownership of a stretch of windswept sheep pasture and a modest house //snip //

Nowadays, the sale and purchase of a quandam feudal barony involves no land whatsoever. The Abolition of Feudal Tenure Act 2000 (which came into effect in 2004) completely abolished feudal tenure and for ever severed the connection of the dignity of feudal baron from the land. A significantly large number of feudal barons own no land whatsoever and the vast majority of those who acquired the dignity in the ten to twenty years or so prior to 2004 did so by the legal connivance of having the dignity attached to a feudal superiority (which was bereft of any actual freehold landholding); feudal superiorities then evaporated upon the Act coming into force.

I thought this wee snippet of information unworthy of starting a new thread.

[andrewkerensky]

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[Ryan Shuflin]

BTW, how does one address an esquire? I mean in a context where you would normally say, Mr. Smith, would you say Smith Esq?

[Chris Green]

BTW, how does one address an esquire? I mean in a context where you would normally say, Mr. Smith, would you say Smith Esq?

In exactly the same way as one addresses a gentleman - the principle reason I would guess why the rank of Esquire has to most intents and purposes expired.

Knights have survived and prospered for two reasons - they are addressed as "Sir James", "Sir Horace" etc, rather than "James", Horace" or "Mr Golightly", and (perhaps even more importantly) their wives are addressed as "Lady Golightly" rather than "Mrs Golightly" or "Jemima", or "Florence". The head of steam behind many a successful man to get his "K" has more often than not come from his wife. No wife pressures their man to become an Esquire. He will be addressed (at least on mail) as "Esq" by all and sundry anyway.

[JMcMillan]

He will be addressed (at least on mail) as "Esq" by all and sundry anyway.

And in speech, by those not on a first-name basis, as "Mr. Doe" (and she as "Mrs. Doe"), just like everyone else.

Except that I once again feel the obsessive-compulsive urge to point out at least one traditional area in which a different form of address was involved.

In the rural England of Dickens and Thackeray, an esquire was addressed verbally as "squire," at least by members of the lower orders.

The same would have been true in the American South in the case of a judge or JP acting in his official function. For example, my great-great-grandfather George Shepherd Ham of Sylacauga, Alabama, was known as "Squire Ham" in his capacity as a justice of the peace. (When conducting the affairs of his Baptist church, he was "Deacon Ham.") When I was living in Nashville, Tennessee, in the mid-70s, I used to hear this usage all the time on TV news reports; police officers, lawyers, and so on would refer to taking someone before "the squire," meaning a magistrate, for a hearing. This all, of course, derives ultimately from the English practice that a justice of the peace is an esquire by virtue of his office.

[Chris Green]

In the rural England of Dickens and Thackeray, an esquire was addressed verbally as "squire," at least by members of the lower orders.

In the England of the 18th/19th century the local squire might of course equally be a peer, a knight, or a gentleman (and the "lower orders" might well not know which). As it was never a formal title, the term squire might be used for the Lord of the Manor, or anyone with local influence and land-holding. He might well be a Justice of the Peace, though being squire did not necessarily involve any formal responsibilities in the County.

One thing seems pretty certain, the term was not normally used in cities and boroughs. A city or borough luminary might be a JP, or (Lord) Mayor, or an Alderman, but wouldn't be referred to as "squire". Sir Clarence Golightly who came to town seldom and did not keep up with society and fashion, might conceivably be called "Squire Golightly" by city folk but it would be in jest ("Tee hee look at that bumpkin Golightly! Where does he buy his clothes?!").

Latterly, for reasons best known to London's cockneys, the term squire, became used as a substitute for "mate", or perhaps "sir". "Evenin' squire, pint of the usual?". The term "guv'nor" (governor) came to be used similarly having started out as public school (US private school!) slang for one's father.

[andrewkerensky]

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