Post removed.

General Heraldry subjects
User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 3626
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Armiger versus Esquire?

Postby Chris Green » 15 Mar 2015, 18:24

andrewkerensky wrote:Just to add some new insights-
English = Esquire; Ireland = Squireen; Scotland = Laird


Not really. Most English landowners, including some with extensive land-holdings and many tenants, were Gentlemen (they might be informally addressed as Squire or Lord of the Manor, but Gentlemen was what they were in terms of precedence).

Many Irish Squireens were, in English terms, Yeomen farmers in a modest way, not even Gentlemen. They might have tenants or not. The term Squireen had no status in terms of official precedence.

Many English Esquires had their rank from their military/judicial/official status, i.e. nothing to do with any land-holdings they may have had. A Scot could only be a Laird on the basis of his land-holding. Thus the Laird is in some ways more akin to the English Squire or Lord of the Manor, though the status is much more clearly delineated in Scots Law than Squire or Lord of the Manor ever was in English law.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Bertilak de Hautdesert

User avatar
JMcMillan
Posts: 613
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 22:33
Location: United States

Re: Armiger versus Esquire?

Postby JMcMillan » 15 Mar 2015, 19:42

And "laird" was never an official status of any kind, either before or after the name. You won't find it in the royal warrant of 1905 established the official scale of precedence in Scotland, for example. (You won't find feudal barons, either, even though Innes of Learney seemed to think he was empowered to add them to the list approved by the king.)
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

User avatar
Martin Goldstraw
Site Admin
Posts: 1400
Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 17:27
Location: Shropshire, England.
Contact:

Re: Armiger versus Esquire?

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 16 Mar 2015, 13:39

An awful lot of this nonsense about lairds (and now squireens!) has been put about by the one square foot vendors to enhance the status of their wares in the eyes of the ignorant. Unfortunately, it appears to have worked.
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk

andrewkerensky
Posts: 42
Joined: 27 Jul 2014, 19:41

Postby andrewkerensky » 16 Mar 2015, 15:01

Post removed.
Last edited by andrewkerensky on 19 Apr 2015, 00:08, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 3626
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Armiger versus Esquire?

Postby Chris Green » 16 Mar 2015, 15:11

andrewkerensky wrote::-) ok folks, just a little riposte for you all the Chambers Dictionary New Edition gives the following contemporary understanding of the following-
Esquire a landed propieter [sic]
Squireen an Irish landed gentleman
Laird an estate landowner
Hmmm I see a connection here chaps :-)
Just saying.


If (big if) Chambers were correct, then the Letters Patent signed with HM The Queen's Sign Manual appointing me and thousands of others Officers of HM Diplomatic Service and similar LPs appointing QCs, military officers and others, would have made me a "landed proprietor". They didn't; I'm not. Chambers Dictionary is confusing Esquire with Squire.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Bertilak de Hautdesert

andrewkerensky
Posts: 42
Joined: 27 Jul 2014, 19:41

Postby andrewkerensky » 16 Mar 2015, 15:59

Post removed.
Last edited by andrewkerensky on 19 Apr 2015, 00:09, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 3626
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Armiger versus Esquire?

Postby Chris Green » 16 Mar 2015, 16:09

andrewkerensky wrote:I'm not convinced Chris, I think the new chambers dictionary is providing a contemporary understanding that people would understand rather than an indepth traditional understanding. That's how I see it anyway :-)
Just saying.


It might well be a "contemporary understanding" but that doesn't make it correct. Dictionaries are not always 100% accurate any more than Wikipedia is 100% reliable.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Bertilak de Hautdesert

User avatar
Martin Goldstraw
Site Admin
Posts: 1400
Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 17:27
Location: Shropshire, England.
Contact:

Re: Armiger versus Esquire?

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 16 Mar 2015, 16:40

I too am, by letters patent, an esquire though that has nothing to do with any property I may or may not own and although I am a landlord, by virtue of the fact that I have a certain number of properties which have tenants who pay me rents, I could hardly be considered to be "landed".

The truth is that in the real everyday down to earth workaday world of both the UK and Ireland all this business about Esquires, Squireens and Laird is, by any contemporary definition, meaningless.

Meaningless: adjective
having no meaning or significance.
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk

User avatar
Mike_Oettle
Posts: 132
Joined: 11 Feb 2015, 17:03
Location: Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape, South Africa

Re: Armiger versus Esquire?

Postby Mike_Oettle » 16 Mar 2015, 17:34

This discussion on dictionaries calls to mind that several trendy dictionaries define the word crest as being a coat of arms, or even a logo. :mrgreen:
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life.
[Proverbs 14:27]

User avatar
JMcMillan
Posts: 613
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 22:33
Location: United States

Re: Armiger versus Esquire?

Postby JMcMillan » 16 Mar 2015, 20:43

I started to post this yesterday and thought better of it, but it now seems germane.

So the question is the traditional definition of esquire in Scottish usage.

The following is from Lord Bankton's Institute of the Laws of Scotland (1751). Bankton is what is termed in Scots law an "institutional writer." That means, in effect, that what he says is absolutely authoritative unless contradicted by a statute or a judicial decision. What any dictionary or encyclopaedia or even Wikipedia might say does not trump an institutional writer.

From Book I, title II, "The State and Distinction of Persons:"

- "Barons are properly those who have their lands erected by the king into the feudal dignity of a barony."

- "Freeholders are those who, without the dignity of a baron, hold lands of the crown; a forty shilling land of old extent, or four hundred pound of valued rent, qualifies them to vote in the election of commissioners to the parliament for shires, or of being elected." [Note that this is different from the meaning of a freeholder in England; Scottish freeholders were only those who held land directly from the crown, i.e. as tenants in capite.

- "Esquires are mentioned, in the forecited old statutes, next to barons, but the penalty of lawborrows broken upon them is the same as upon knights, tho' these three were different titles of dignity; this title is more frequent with us since the union than formerly, and I conceive it is an addition that may be justly given to barons or freeholders, as in England it is a title of dignity betwixt that of knight batchelor and gentleman." [The mention of knights in the first sentence has to do with those who held their lands by knight-service, which had been abolished by statute well before Bankton was writing--"these many ages past," he says in another passage. Esquires "in the forecited old statutes" derived from this obsolete form of tenure. Also note, once again, that not every landowner may "justly" be called esquire in Bankton's scheme; only those who hold their lands directly from the crown, not from some other feudal superior.]

- "Persons holding lands of subjects [i.e., other than directly from the crown], if not distinguished by some other mark of honour or respect, are called feuars, and deemed of an inferior rank to freeholders; they have no title to elect, or be elected commissioners to parliament; sometimes barons, free-holders and feuars are all brought under one common designation of landed gentlemen...but that designation cannot agree to such common feuars as do not consort with gentlemen, and therefore have no claim to that character." [Note that Bankton defines "gentleman" in part by land tenure and in part by whether one is recognized as such by other gentlemen.]

- "[G]entleman, in ordinary discourse, extends only to those under noblemen [i.e., including barons and freeholders], and above the commonality; but as a distinct title, constituting a different rank of persons, it must be limited to those under barons and freeholders, and above common feuars, and such are classed with burgesses; therefore, in this sense, those who are descended of barons and freeholders, or of those of superior dignities, are gentlemen; they generally are honoured with the title of esquire, while they support the dignity of their birth, tho' of old they had no other designation that of gentleman; and of late those of the laicks that have such offices as become gentlemen, as that of a physician, &c. are commonly thought intitled to the rank and degree of esquire. Offices of distinction, civil, military and ecclesiastical, create those that enjoy them gentlemen: such likewise, as by their virtuous behavior and worthy deportment of gentlemen, are justly intitled to the character." [So "esquire" was used for anyone descended from a peer, baron, or freeholder, provided that he didn't have an occupation or behave himself in a way inconsistent with the style, whether he himself held land or not, as well as for those in the learned professions. No provision for esquires by virtue of holding a civil or military appointment, unlike the situation in England.]

- "Only gentlemen are intitled to bear a coat of arms, which they may of right demand from the lord Lyon, and get them matriculated in his register." [If you are a gentleman, in other words, Lyon must grant or matriculate a coat of arms upon request.]

So, bottom line: by the mid-1800s, the term "esquire" in Scotland could be applied to those who held lands directly from the crown (whether barons or freeholders), to descendants of peers, barons, or freeholders, and to those in the learned professions. Since the colloquial term "laird" might apply to any landowner, whether baron, freeholder, or feuar, it is not accurate to equate "esquire" with "laird."

Note that almost all of this has long since been outdated, and everything deriving from feudal tenure became obsolete when feudal tenure was abolished in Scotland a few years back.
Last edited by JMcMillan on 17 Mar 2015, 21:20, edited 1 time in total.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA


Return to “General Heraldry”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests