Heraldic Term?

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Chas Charles-Dunne
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Re: Heraldic Term?

Postby Chas Charles-Dunne » 10 Aug 2012, 10:27

Benjamin Thornton wrote:So, Chas...what's behind this thread? Are you simply testing our knowledge of a moderately rare term, or have you an example to discuss, or a synonym to compare, or something else altogether?


Hi Benjamin,

May I ask that everybody wait till the 14th? That gives a full week for any stray members to chime in. All will be revealed - I promise.
Regards
Chas
IAAH Fellow

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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Heraldic Term?

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 12 Aug 2012, 23:58

Isn't that a name of an elf in LOTR?

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Kathy McClurg
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Re: Heraldic Term?

Postby Kathy McClurg » 14 Aug 2012, 11:10

It's the 14th in the United States, what does the rest of the world say? :lol:
Be well,
Kathy

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Chas Charles-Dunne
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Re: Heraldic Term?

Postby Chas Charles-Dunne » 14 Aug 2012, 11:48

Hello All,

What's this all about, then?

Well, in what little spare time I have, I am also a Wikipedia editor (like a few others here). Now I know that Wikipedia is like Marmite - you either love it or loathe it - there is no middle ground. Yes anyone can add content and yes that content can be deliberately wrong. But errors don't last long because there are people like me who patrol certain areas. Please remember that all content on Wikipedia has to be verifiable, so deliberate lies don't last long.

One of my areas is Heraldry. At the moment the whole category structure is a mess - a veritable swamp. Different heraldic subjects are tacked on willy-nilly, with no regard for a cohesive search ability. I am trying to sort the tree out, so that if one is searching for a particular subject it can be found.

Unfortunately, some editors are more interested in showing off their own knowledge rather than improving the overall structure. They create categories for every possible genus of animal that has ever lived. All they are doing is clogging up the system.

One of the conventions is that category titles (in Heraldry) will be in English, unless there is no equivalent. One editor created a stand alone category called "Cyclamor". I argued that, as far as English was concerned, it would be blazoned "one large annulet" and if we must have it, it should be placed as a sub-category of Annulets. The edit-war started. He impugned my heraldic knowledge, by stating that "everybody knows what a Cyclamor is". I countered with "nobody knows what a Cyclamor is". (Not my best retort, I know).

We have here a reasonable cross-section of heraldic knowledge. If members had said "of course, I know", or "I've heard it before, but can't quite place it", I would have conceded the field and apologised to the other editor. As it stands, I think I am vindicated and will press for Cyclamor to be a sub-category rather than a top category.

Thank you all for assisting me.
Regards
Chas
IAAH Fellow

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steven harris
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Re: Heraldic Term?

Postby steven harris » 14 Aug 2012, 12:56

I would concurr - it should be a subcatagory, as described.
Steven A. Harris, Fellow
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Heraldic Term?

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 14 Aug 2012, 13:29

This is indeed a difficult task where multi-editors are involved. One editor could decide how he wishes to lay the dictionary out and proceed on that basis; I have every sympathy with Chas (who holds my utmost respect for even attempting such a project) who is faced with what in effect is editing by Committee. Committees rarely achieve the perfect result and are often forced to achieve the lowest common denominator.

My own two penneth worth is that Cyclamor is a French heraldic term and although it has to be accepted that many of the terms used in British heraldry have firm roots in French blazon this is a term which is, in British circles, obsolete. Therefore, rather than adopting a policy of the Wiki heraldic dictionary being in English, why not leave terms which belong to French blazon to the French Wiki site and confine discussion and descriptions on the English language site to British heraldry and those jurisdictions which have adopted the British form of blazon. This could be extended to different languages and different traditions. I am quite sure that there are terms used in Spanish blazon which are quite alien to those who study British heraldry and vice versa. Once one has accepted the fact that French terms are dealt with in the french Wiki, Spanish terms are dealt with in the Spanish Wiki etc etc then you can concentrate your efforts and expertise on what you are most familiar with, that of British heraldry, without offending anyone who has an interest in the heraldry of other countries. Heraldry is undoubtedly international but it is not identical in every country. Let the French deal with French heraldic terms.
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk

Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Heraldic Term?

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 15 Aug 2012, 15:12

It would be nice if it could work that way, but wikimedia commons (where most of wikipedia's images are stored) is used for all of them, and the language of the commons is English. Additionally, I have found some persons want to bring all of wikipedia into synchronicity.


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