Page 1 of 1

Members' Submitted Heraldry

Posted: 27 Apr 2017, 09:21
by John Olliff-Cooper
We know and accept that Lyon, the College, and Chief Herald of Ireland, have the final say in the matter of grants. My question - how have experienced members got on with their own (one supposes properly considered and compliant) preferred designs when applying for grants? Clearly, designs must be proper heraldry, within the established rules, and must be unique.

Do individual Heralds vary in their enthusiasm for knowledgable enthusiasts' enthusiasms?

Re: Members' Submitted Heraldry

Posted: 27 Apr 2017, 10:47
by Chris Green
A very apt question for members of the IAAH. Some of us went through the process of seeking a grant of arms years ago. Others may be considering that big step now.

In my case, I approached the College of Arms with two concepts, but no "ready-to-use" blazon. I wanted to indicate travel (I was a diplomat), and I wanted to show my strong link to the County of Sussex. York wouldn't go for six martlets three two and one as being too near the Sussex martlets and to the arms of the ancient families of Arundell. But he suggested that three martlets volant would meet the bill, both for the Sussex connection and the idea of travelling. Add flaunches vert to represent two land-masses plus barry wavy azure and argent for the sea and "Robert is your father's brother" so to speak. As for the crest: an iron fist holding a velvet glove and a further link to diplomacy is made. The crest was 100% my idea and was accepted without amendment (even the ermine lining). So I didn't get exactly what I had in mind, but York worked around my concept and came up with something which is in fact better.

I think in general heraldic authorities appreciate educated proposals. But one should bear in mind that they are professionals and may have ideas which are far better than one's own. One need look no further than some of the recent grants on the College of Arms' web-site to see some of the unusual designs that have been approved in recent times:

It would I think be a brave herald who would rule out every element of the arms proposed by one of our members (or anyone else with a reasonable knowledge of heraldry), assuming that one had met the established rules and traditions of heraldry and made a good effort to ensure uniqueness. But applicants should approach the process with a mind open to considering alternatives.

Re: Members' Submitted Heraldry

Posted: 27 Apr 2017, 11:53
by Martin Goldstraw
My personal (English) arms were entirely devised by the then Norroy and Ulster King of Arms, now Garter, who was kind enough to ask me for my thoughts and then provide suggestions (which formed the basis of the final design). I was clear that I wanted the overall colour scheme to be red and white with a chevron as this formed the basis of the Goostrey arms (Argent, a chevron between three squirrels Gules) . My initial thoughts were along the lines of replacing the squirrels in the Goostrey arms with two geese in chief and an oak tree in base with the crest somehow representing the fact that I was a Justice of the Peace and perhaps something else representing my profession however, Mr. Woodcock persuaded me, quite easily, that the goose and the tree together would make a good crest. Having accepted the crest, alternative designs were tabled for the shield and I preferred the one finally adopted.

This is the painting of the draft that was finally accepted by me.
goldstraw-arm low res.JPG

The observant among you will notice that I quickly abandoned the motto and adopted a new one. Unlike Scotland, in England mottoes are not part of the actual grant (although they are painted on the Letters Patent). The motto I now use is Ab Initio Goostrey and this has been accepted, by Lyon, in the Scottish matriculation of my English arms.

Commercially I also have a stake in the arms of The Armorial Register Limited. The armorial bearings of The Armorial Register Limited were designed by the directors of the Company (John and me) and the design was graciously accepted and granted, without alteration, by the Lord Lyon King of Arms in Scotland. The Armorial Register Limited is a company registered in the Kingdom of Scotland and it is a legal requirement that all armorial bearings used in Scotland must be recorded in the Register of All Arms and Bearings of Scotland kept by the Lord Lyon King of Arms. It is unlawful in Scotland for anyone to use arms unless they have been so recorded. We are extremely proud that the company is now lawfully an armigerous corporation.

The shield was designed by me, editor and director, and the crest was designed by John Duncan of Sketraw, web master and director. In a moment of inspiration I came up with the motto as being appropriate to the work of The Register.

The thoughts behind the design are:

Arms: The predominant colours represent the home of the Company, Scotland, with each escutcheon representing an entry in the Register all linked together to form the Register itself which is published in book form as each volume is filled.

Crest: The lion is, arguably, the most recognisable of all the heraldic beasts. Here, he is attempting to stretch his grasp around the world.

Motto: Fulfilment by Achievement.

The motto is worthy in its own right as a corporate motto but it also alludes to the fact that each volume of the register is added to achievement by achievement until it is ready (fulfilled) for publication as a book.



John and I have also been privileged to have had accepted by the Lord Lyon (in some cases with minor alteration) a number of designs we have submitted on behalf of clients (three of which have recently been accepted and are currently awaiting production of letters patent). Lyon will only deal either directly with the petitioner or via a solicitor (or a herald or pursuivant of the Court) representing the client so we liaise with the client in the design process and the client's solicitor then petitions Lyon. In the case of our own petition (Armorial Register) we were able to petition on our own behalf.

As an after thought, we should all, always, acknowledge the fact that both the College of Arms and the Lyon Court continually deal with applicants who are ignorant of heraldry and who have taken no previous advice. The "official" heralds and Kings of Arms are of course professional experts and have a wealth of knowledge and resources to help new petitioners design arms anew. They are good at it.

Re: Members' Submitted Heraldry

Posted: 27 Apr 2017, 14:12
by Martin Goldstraw
Of course, if you consider yourself to be good at designing arms you could always apply for the present vacancy:

The College of Arms is seeking to recruit a research assistant (trainee) for a period of six to twelve months. The successful candidate will learn how to deal with heraldic and genealogical enquiries arising from members of the public and various organisations, how to process applications for new grants of arms and about other work undertaken by the College. Upon completion of this training period, the candidate will be assessed with a view to appointment as an officer of arms. If appointed, he or she will be able to run an independent heraldic and genealogical practice within the College generating his or her own income. ... tship-2017

Re: Members' Submitted Heraldry

Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 16:56
by Anderson Tomazine
Sabemos que cada vez mais há por parte dos indivíduos comuns um crescente interesse pela heráldica ou devo dizer, uma crescente curiosidade por parte de quem não conhece e deseja conhecer.
Eu por exemplo desde criança já ouvia e me apaixonei por esta arte, porém nunca tive possibilidades de me instruir devidamente nesta arte e adquiri algum conhecimento que tomo como base para discutir e fazer algum na área ou simplesmente para não ser chamado de um individuo totalmente leigo.
As vezes desenho me utilizando de softwares e com isso aprendo a utilizar os softwares assim como me aprimoro nas peças heráldicas.
Na América Latina, em particular no Brasil, a heráldica é um campo esquecido, restrito a grupos com indivíduos apaixonados pela arte heráldica como eu que se utilizam de todos os meios para revive-la, porém há indivíduos especializados na área que muitas vezes que preferem direcionar seus conhecimentos, aprimorá-los e aplicá-los longe de suas raízes, devo dizer, em outros países ou continentes ou até de forma restrita.
Ou seja, meu país muitas vezes só dá o devido valor a esta arte quando se trata de um fator financeiro e muitas vezes voltado para criação de logomarcas.
Eu resolvi fazer o meu brasão de armas, um esboço ...
Verifiquei, ainda que não me pertença, o meu nome... o do meu lado materno, assim como o do meu lado paterno, fiz uma pesquisa genealógica por conta própria, mesmo porque, sempre fui um autodidata desde quando me conheço como individuo.
Então usei o Castro de minha mãe, e o Tomazine de meu pai.
Castro, uma família Hispano-portuguesa e Tomazine uma família Italiana, todas as duas com muitas ramificações aqui no Brasil e em muitos lugares e com variações de grafias, porém procurei ser o mais original e raiz possível vindo até procurar profissionais especializados na área para chegar a este ponto.
Gostaria de oficializar este brasão, pois muito me agrada e procurei fazê-lo com os meus desenhos sem copiar nada de ninguém, mesmo porque há as normas dos direitos autorais que em algum tempo cheguei a esbarrar e fui chamado atenção por isso, mais o redesenhei do meu jeito e como me foi possível até agora. Mas registrá-lo ??? Vejo certa dificuldade sempre que tento, seja pela falta de resposta, seja por um alto preço cobrado... ou inúmeras outras situações....

TIMBRE: O Galo do Escudo (TOMAZINE).
CONDECORADO: a Primeira: Medalha Mérito Militar Honra ao Mérito de Prata, a Segunda: Comenda Honra ao Mérito BRASLIDER, a Segunda: Comenda Mérito Maçônico GLOMEB.

Fica aqui registrado a minha opinião e se os irmãos assim desejarem deem sua opinião sobre o desenho e sobre o assunto.

Sorry, I do not speak English well.

We know that more and more people are increasingly interested in heraldry, or I must say, a growing curiosity on the part of those who do not know and want to know.
I, for example, had been a child, and I fell in love with this art, but I never had the possibility to instruct myself properly in this art and I acquired some knowledge that I take as a base to discuss and do some in the area or simply not to be called a totally lay individual .
Sometimes I design myself using software and with that I learn to use the software as I improve in heraldic pieces.
In Latin America, particularly in Brazil, heraldry is a forgotten field, restricted to groups with individuals who are passionate about heraldic art, such as myself, who use every means to revive it, but there are individuals who specialize in the field, who often prefer direct their knowledge, improve them and apply them away from their roots, I must say, in other countries or continents or even in a restricted way.
That is, my country often only gives due value to this art when it comes to a financial factor and often aimed at creating logos.
I decided to make my coat of arms, a sketch ...
I have verified, even if it does not belong to me, my name ... the one on my maternal side, as well as the one on my paternal side, I did a genealogical research on my own, even though I have always been a self-taught person since I knew myself as an individual.
So I used my mother's Castro, and my father's Tomazine.
Castro, a Hispano-Portuguese family and Tomazine an Italian family, all the two with many branches here in Brazil and in many places and with variations of spellings, but I tried to be the most original and possible root coming until looking for professionals specialized in the area to reach to this point.
I would like to officialize this coat of arms, because I like it very much and I tried to do it with my drawings without copying anything from anyone, even though there are the norms of the copyright that in some time I came across and I was called attention for that, more I redesigned it my way and how it was possible so far. But register it ??? I see some difficulty whenever I try, either for lack of response, or for a high price charged ... or countless other situations ....

THE SECOND GOLD WITH THIRD WASHER BOLTS 3,3,3,3,1. (Castro) - Portugal.
TIMBER: The Cock of the Shield (TOMAZINE).
CONDECORADO: the First: Military Merit Medal Honors the Silver Merit, the Second: Honors Merit Commendation BRASLIDER, the Second: Masonic Merit Commendation GLOMEB.

Here my opinion is recorded and if the brothers wish to give their opinion about the drawing and the subject.


Re: Members' Submitted Heraldry

Posted: 09 Apr 2018, 21:11
by Chris Green
First of all, I would render your blazon as:

Per pale, dexter Azure between three Roses Or a Rooster Argent, beaked and legged Or, wattled and combed Gules (Tomazine), sinister Or thirteen Hurts 3,3,3,3 and 1 (Castro). Crest: a Rooster Argent, beaked and legged Or, wattled and combed Gules. Mantling Azure doubled Or.

(A "hurt" is a blue roundel.)

You will see that I have given the cock rather more detail, following the picture you provided.

I cannot speak for Brazilian, Portuguese or Italian heraldic practice, but normally one would not use the undifferenced arms unless head of the family, which I guess you are not. If you intend merely to create arms that indicate your family history, you should consider making a couple of significant changes to the arms - different tinctures, different charges, additional charges.

Re: Members' Submitted Heraldry

Posted: 11 Apr 2018, 08:12
by Michael F. McCartney
Interesting design. Chris has given a very good English blazon. But as his comments suggest, there may be Italian, Portuguese, or Brazilian rules or customs that differ from English practice in some regards.

. example, the English used to (and some still do) "difference" the family arms when used by younger sons / brothers and limit the "undifferenced" arms to the head of the family. But many Continental traditions seldom if ever differenced arms within the extended family, except perhaps among the higher nobility or Royal family. I can't say for sure where Italy or Portugal fit within that spectrum.

Re: Members' Submitted Heraldry

Posted: 11 Apr 2018, 10:12
by Martin Goldstraw
Michael F. McCartney wrote://snip// example, the English used to (and some still do) "difference" the family arms when used by younger sons / brothers and limit the "undifferenced" arms to the head of the family.

The reality is that in England one coat of arms to all intents and purposes does belong to an entire family. Not, I hasten to add to a surname but undoubtedly to a family. In a reply to a letter from Ralph Brocklebank to Garter King of Arms (The Heraldry Gazette December 2007), Garter replied thus:
“I believe it right in England and Wales for a branch to use cadency marks sparingly and only if they wish to do so.” Mr. Brocklebank comments that it seems continental style family arms are tolerated and here to stay.

Re: Members' Submitted Heraldry

Posted: 12 Apr 2018, 07:55
by Michael F. McCartney
That's essentially the point I was trying to make, but I hadn't seen it expressed so openly and strongly by an official English herald. Thanks!!!