Countries with an establshed nobility?

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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 29 Jul 2015, 09:48

Chris Green wrote:

I am not quite clear what you are getting at here Ryan. In the UK one may change one's name by deed poll (without resort to lawyers - it's relatively straightforward, I've done it). So it is perfectly possible for a John Smith to become, say, Count Cagliostro, though whether that would be accepted for the purposes of a British passport is entirely up to the Passport Office (and if they said OK, the Count would be as a forename not a title.



It is the policy of the passport office, where a forename may be mistaken for a title, to place a note in the "observations" page in the passport.

In cases where an applicant has adopted a description of a title of nobility as a forename the observation to be entered is:
• THE REFERENCE TO .............................................. IS TO THE HOLDER'S NAME AND NOT TO THE HOLDER'S TITLE.(e.g. LORD; SIR; BARON; ETC.)
This observation should automatically be placed in the passport of any such applicant and there is no need to contact them // snip//


I'm not sure whether the UK passport office would place an observation on someone with Count as a forename as Count is not a title in the UK peerage.
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Mike_Oettle
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Mike_Oettle » 30 Jul 2015, 20:31

Ryan Shuflin wrote: “I don't see why native chiefdoms and subnational kingdoms don't count as nobility.”

Well, as I mentioned there have been moves in that direction in South Africa.
However since most of the chiefs and kings in this country are not armigerous (I know that the Zulu king has registered arms in Pretoria), this has extremely limited bearing on armorial usage.
There is also no clear gradation of rank. Various chiefs have obtained recognition (under the old legislation) as paramount chiefs, and now style themselves kings. But it seems as if others, also, are arrogating themselves to that status.
Those chiefs who are not kings cannot clearly be divided into anything equivalent to dukes, marquesses, earls (counts), viscounts and barons.
Traditional leaders who are neither kings nor chiefs are generally termed headmen, but this would appear to be a non-noble position of leadership.
Regards,
Mike
Last edited by Mike_Oettle on 19 Aug 2015, 21:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 17 Aug 2015, 15:59

Mike_Oettle wrote:Ryan Shufflin wrote: “I don't see why native chiefdoms and subnational kingdoms don't count as nobility.”

Well, as I mentioned there have been moves in that direction in South Africa.
However since most of the chiefs and kings in this country are not armigerous (I know that the Zulu king has registered arms in Pretoria), this has extremely limited bearing on armorial usage.
There is also no clear gradation of rank. Various chiefs have obtained recognition (under the old legislation) as paramount chiefs, and now style themselves kings. But it seems as if others, also, are arrogating themselves to that status.
Those chiefs who are not kings cannot clearly be divided into anything equivalent to dukes, marquesses, earls (counts), viscounts and barons.
Traditional leaders who are neither kings nor chiefs are generally termed headmen, but this would appear to be a non-noble position of leadership.
Regards,
Mike


Nobility is not limited to titled persons. And society with a hereditary upper class has nobility. Actually, the UK is unique in that the untitled noblemen (gentry) didn't enjoy extensive privileges and immunities and was not legally defined.

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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Mike_Oettle » 19 Aug 2015, 21:32

Ryan Shuflin wrote: “Nobility is not limited to titled persons.”

That also is well known to me. But in South Africa there is no untitled nobility.
People entitled to be called chiefs are styled that way (in Xhosa and Zulu, the term is khosi, and in Sesotho and Setswana, kgosi).
This term is used of any and all persons of rank from village chiefs to kings of subnational groups.
Each ethnic group has its own way of determining who may be a chief, but among the amaXhosa of the Eastern Cape all chiefs (with rare exceptions) are members of the royal clan, the amaTshawe.
I know of only two exceptions.
First there was the 19th-century prophet Makhanda, who was known in his own time as Nxele (meaning left-handed), Links (among the Dutch) or Lynx (among the British). His name is nowadays commonly misspelt as Makana.
I have also heard of one other exception in the 21st century, but I cannot call his name to mind.
Regards,
Mike
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Jonathan Webster » 30 May 2020, 19:40

JMcMillan wrote:Sorry to bump such an old thread, but reading this paragraph has made me realise something: there are Baronets of England, Scotland (Nova Scotia), Great Britain and the United Kingdom. Yet there were never any (to my knowledge)Baronets of Ireland, even though there was/is a Peerage and an Order of Chivalry (St. Patrick).


Baronets of England could, perhaps, be considered to be baronets of Ireland since the degree was in effect created as a money raising scheme, by the King, "for the plantation and protection of the whole Kingdom of Ireland, but more especially for the defence and security of the Province of Ulster, and therefore for their distinction those of this order and their descendants may bear the badge (Red Hand of Ulster) in their coats of arms either in canton or an escutcheon at their election"

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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Jonathan Webster » 01 Jun 2020, 23:10

Actually scratch that...apparently Baronets of Ireland totally were/are a thing :roll:

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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 06 Jun 2020, 09:43

Jonathan Webster wrote:
JMcMillan wrote:Sorry to bump such an old thread, but reading this paragraph has made me realise something: there are Baronets of England, Scotland (Nova Scotia), Great Britain and the United Kingdom. Yet there were never any (to my knowledge)Baronets of Ireland, even though there was/is a Peerage and an Order of Chivalry (St. Patrick).


Baronets of England could, perhaps, be considered to be baronets of Ireland since the degree was in effect created as a money raising scheme, by the King, "for the plantation and protection of the whole Kingdom of Ireland, but more especially for the defence and security of the Province of Ulster, and therefore for their distinction those of this order and their descendants may bear the badge (Red Hand of Ulster) in their coats of arms either in canton or an escutcheon at their election"


I really don't know how I managed to provide the above reply to Joseph under the auspices of Jonathan!! perhaps as an admin, I pressed the wrong tab. My apologies to Jonathan, I had meant to reply to Joseph as myself!!
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Jonathan Webster » 06 Jun 2020, 11:11

Martin Goldstraw wrote:
Jonathan Webster wrote:
JMcMillan wrote:Sorry to bump such an old thread, but reading this paragraph has made me realise something: there are Baronets of England, Scotland (Nova Scotia), Great Britain and the United Kingdom. Yet there were never any (to my knowledge)Baronets of Ireland, even though there was/is a Peerage and an Order of Chivalry (St. Patrick).


Baronets of England could, perhaps, be considered to be baronets of Ireland since the degree was in effect created as a money raising scheme, by the King, "for the plantation and protection of the whole Kingdom of Ireland, but more especially for the defence and security of the Province of Ulster, and therefore for their distinction those of this order and their descendants may bear the badge (Red Hand of Ulster) in their coats of arms either in canton or an escutcheon at their election"


I really don't know how I managed to provide the above reply to Joseph under the auspices of Jonathan!! perhaps as an admin, I pressed the wrong tab. My apologies to Jonathan, I had meant to reply to Joseph as myself!!


No worries Martin, I'm far too polite to point that out.


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