Royal Wedding

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: Royal Wedding

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 17 May 2018, 16:30

Chasing s different squirrel, curious re: Martin's post (several bumps above) re: "Christened and Confirmed" with, if I recall correctly, speculation that she might have been re-Christened into (by?) the Church of England.

I assume (?) that "christened" is just Brit-speak for "baptised". AFAIK at least in the US a person is (supposed to be) baptised only once, not re-baptised on changing from e.g. Presbyterian to Methodist or Episcopalian (Anglican) or Catholic - so long as one is baptised in the name of the Trinity, it's considered to be valid by any church professing the Trinity.

Please note that I'm not questioning, arguing or trolling re: the theological merits, only curious as to the process.
Michael F. McCartney
Fremont, California

Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Royal Wedding

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 19 May 2018, 15:47

Michael F. McCartney wrote:Chasing s different squirrel, curious re: Martin's post (several bumps above) re: "Christened and Confirmed" with, if I recall correctly, speculation that she might have been re-Christened into (by?) the Church of England.

I assume (?) that "christened" is just Brit-speak for "baptised". AFAIK at least in the US a person is (supposed to be) baptised only once, not re-baptised on changing from e.g. Presbyterian to Methodist or Episcopalian (Anglican) or Catholic - so long as one is baptised in the name of the Trinity, it's considered to be valid by any church professing the Trinity.

Please note that I'm not questioning, arguing or trolling re: the theological merits, only curious as to the process.


I believe it depends more on the churches involved than the country.

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JMcMillan
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Re: Royal Wedding

Postby JMcMillan » 19 May 2018, 22:18

Although Meghan was brought up as a Protestant (of which denomination I don't know), she might not have been baptized as a baby. This could be the case if one or both parents were Baptists or members of some other denomination that does not baptize infants, but rather requires children to wait until they can make their own decision on the matter. Or she might have been baptized by one of the denominations that does not use the Trinitarian formula ("in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit") that the Anglican churches require for a baptism to be valid. The article went on to talk about it perhaps being uncertain whether she was baptized or not, although since both parents are living and accessible it's hard to believe that neither would remember. In that case the Anglican church would perform a conditional baptism ("If you haven't been previously baptized, I baptize you in the name of...")

Another possibility not addressed in the Post article is that there was no document to prove her baptism. I don't know whether the Church of England would require proof or just accept the parents' word for it, but I do know that not all Protestant ministers and churches maintain records of such things.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Royal Wedding

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 20 May 2018, 17:55

JMcMillan wrote: // snip//but I do know that not all Protestant ministers and churches maintain records of such things.


Don't they? In England, there have been records of baptisms (Parish Registers) with many records going back to the 1600s. I recently required proof of baptism and wrote to the present incumbent of the Church I was baptized into as a wee baby (Church of England). I received by reply by return post of a certified copy of the entry in the baptism register (no charge though a hint, which I complied with, that a small donation would be appreciated).
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
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JMcMillan
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Re: Royal Wedding

Postby JMcMillan » 21 May 2018, 13:59

Martin Goldstraw wrote:
JMcMillan wrote: // snip//but I do know that not all Protestant ministers and churches maintain records of such things.


Don't they? In England, there have been records of baptisms (Parish Registers) with many records going back to the 1600s. I recently required proof of baptism and wrote to the present incumbent of the Church I was baptized into as a wee baby (Church of England). I received by reply by return post of a certified copy of the entry in the baptism register (no charge though a hint, which I complied with, that a small donation would be appreciated).


Yes, but in England you have an established church in which parish registers are official (or at least quasi-official) records. Some Protestant churches in the US also keep good records--there are Episcopal parish records in Virginia and Maryland going back to the 1600s--but not all.

When my wife and I were preparing to marry in her Catholic church, I was required to produce a baptismal certificate in order for her parish priest to get the required dispensation. (Had I been an outright heathen rather than one of the separated brethren, a somewhat more onerous process would have been necessary.) I had been baptized as a baby by a U.S. Air Force chaplain. I called my parents and asked if they had a certificate, and they said they knew they got one but where it was after 11 changes of house between my birth and my dad's retirement was anyone's guess. So I figured, no problem, I'll just call the Air Force Chief of Chaplains' office because surely they have records, right? Nope. Catholic chaplains, yes; they have to file a report with the military archdiocese. Protestant chaplains, no, unless their own denomination requires it. Apparently the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod did not. Perhaps if I'd been baptized in an actual LCMS parish, but not by one of their military chaplains.

Fortunately, the chaplain and his wife had been good friends with my parents, and I was able to get in touch with him, and he wrote me out a new certification that he had performed the baptism, and that sufficed. A couple of decades later, cleaning out papers in my parents' basement, I finally found the original.
Joseph McMillan
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Royal Wedding

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 21 May 2018, 15:57

You have my sympathy. I guess I am guilty of only having in mind what happens in the very small sphere of my own nation and being blissfully ignorant of others. I wish I could find my original baptism certificate as I remember it as being a rather grand fully illuminated document; the replacement is a rather bland print off proforma.
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk

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Chris Green
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Re: Royal Wedding

Postby Chris Green » 21 May 2018, 18:47

We seem to have drifted rather far from heraldry.
Chris Green
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Apohypaton

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JMcMillan
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Re: Royal Wedding

Postby JMcMillan » 21 May 2018, 19:22

Chris Green wrote:We seem to have drifted rather far from heraldry.


Yes, that occurred to me. I was just about to post this to bring it back, however tangentially.

[img]BaptCert.jpg[/img]
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Joseph McMillan
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Arthur Radburn
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Re: Royal Wedding

Postby Arthur Radburn » 25 May 2018, 20:42

The Duchess of Sussex's arms have been announced. I've started a separate thread for them : viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1427
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Arthur Radburn
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