No Deal! No No No!

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Jonathan Webster
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Re: No Deal! No No No!

Postby Jonathan Webster » 19 Feb 2013, 10:11

I can honestly say that in my experience, I've only ever seen the term 'crest' used in the pages of those awful tabloid newspapers which are full of sensationalist nonsense and I would only ever read for amusement.Yes, I find the term mildly irritating, but on the other hand, I have noticed that the term 'crest' seems to be dying out. I don't think I've ever heard someone say 'crest' to mean Arms. To illustrate, my fiancee (if she ever mentions heraldry, either in passing or in conversation, which is remarkably rarely) only ever calls them 'shields', the same goes for her daughter (who is the only other person in the household who has an interest in heraldry), although she's usd the term 'arms' once or twice. Her son, who displays mild irritation with the subject, only ever calls them 'shields' either. Neither of my sons I have ever mentioned or had a conversation with about heraldry (they're both a bit young), although my youngest would no doubt be interested if I were to bring up the subject in later years given how inquisitive he is, and the affection he has for family. (but hes still more interested in football and my guitars than my library of books one the subject, though he does love books) My best friend, who does not have a slightest interest in the subject, likewise refers to them as 'Arms' or ' shields of arms', as does my fiancee's father. Oh, and this is without correction or direction from yours truly, and a habit I've noticed in general as well. I think purely from common sense: why would you describe an Achievement or shield as a 'crest', when it looks nothing like a crest and looks like a shield. And a trend I'm quite comfortable with, as a 'shield' is exactly what Arms are anyway.

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Peter Harling
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Re: No Deal! No No No!

Postby Peter Harling » 22 Feb 2013, 20:46

Well! Our own brethren can't on occasion get it right. I recently received an email from an 'heraldrist' who inquired if I would like a copy of his CREST BOOKPLATE for my web site, LOL.
Regards ........... Peter
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: No Deal! No No No!

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 23 Feb 2013, 07:25

Peter Harling wrote:Well! Our own brethren can't on occasion get it right. I recently received an email from an 'heraldrist' who inquired if I would like a copy of his CREST BOOKPLATE for my web site, LOL.
Regards ........... Peter


Unless of course it really was a crest bookplate ... :D

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Martin Goldstraw
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Peter Harling
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Re: No Deal! No No No!

Postby Peter Harling » 23 Feb 2013, 19:53

If only! No it was the full coat of arms Martin, LOL.
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Jonathan Webster
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Re: No Deal! No No No!

Postby Jonathan Webster » 26 Apr 2013, 19:22

Getting back to the original post, apparently the Town Council of Deal has apparently decided to bypass the College of Arms and has simply assumed the arms of the Cinque Ports, with the addition of the motto used in the arms previously belonging to the Borough:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-21862909

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-21846829

Thoughts, people?

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Chas Charles-Dunne
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Re: No Deal! No No No!

Postby Chas Charles-Dunne » 26 Apr 2013, 19:38

The ball is very firmly (and publicly) in the College's court. Besides humming and hawing and general throat clearing, will they do anything about it?

I will not hold my breath.
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Chris Green
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Re: No Deal! No No No!

Postby Chris Green » 26 Apr 2013, 19:46

I trust that the Council will be told that they may not usurp the arms of the Cinque Ports but must difference them. I imagine that the female councillor who was so angry about the previous rebuff will then become incandescent and the French will think there is a new lighthouse on the English coast.

It never fails to amaze me that councillors around the country can cavil over spending £10,000 on a grant of arms but have no problem spending three or four times that on "graphic designers" to come up with a logo. Part of the problem is that the College of Arms does not market itself well. They actually have over 500 years of experience of heraldic design and do it very well (OK I am sure everyone can produce examples of work that is less than brilliant).
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Jonathan Webster
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Re: No Deal! No No No!

Postby Jonathan Webster » 27 Apr 2013, 07:49

In all honesty I think the only advice the College of Arms will give is that any arms they assume for themselves will be unlawful. Simply differencing the arms of the Cinque Ports will not be permitted without the College's sanction or involvement.

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Chris Green
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Re: No Deal! No No No!

Postby Chris Green » 27 Apr 2013, 08:53

Simply differencing the arms of the Cinque Ports will not be permitted without the College's sanction or involvement.


I was not suggesting that they assume differenced arms. But if it came down to a choice between using the Cinque Ports arms undifferenced (without authority), using the Cinque Ports arms suitably differenced (without authority), or simply not having a CoA at all, which would a heraldist prefer?

The fundamental problem is that the Councillors consider that spending money on their CoA is wasteful. If they resolutely decline to obtain a grant of arms from the College of Arms and pay the appropriate fees, any other solution (except no arms at all) must be without authority. I would sympathise - if I thought that Town Councils were always so careful how they spend the taxpayers' money.
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Jonathan Webster
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Re: No Deal! No No No!

Postby Jonathan Webster » 27 Apr 2013, 11:21

All of which makes me wonder how many town and parish councils there are out there using arms assumed rather than through the College of Arms. Quite a few I would imagine.


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