Arms within arms.

[Martin Goldstraw]

In a recent discussion on Facebook, I referred to a bookplate in my collection because it was germane to the discussion.



Morley, Earl of

Arms: Sable, a buck's head cabossed between two flaunches Argent.

Crest: A cubit arm couped below the elbow the sleve Azure cuffed and slashed Argent the hand graspin a stag's attire Gules.

Supporters: Dexter, a stag argent collared Or pendant from the collar a shield Vert, charged with a horse's head couped Argent bridled Or. sinister, A greyhound sable collared Or pendant from the collar a shield Gules charged with a ducal coronet Or.

The discussion came about because of a draft crest which featured a griffon holding a banner; what was to be on the banner? Was it appropriate to use the arms of someone else or, if some other charge was placed upon the banner (which was simply a part of the crest) did this create another, new, achievement?

[Ryan Shuflin]

I think most cases of flags and banners in arms are meant to show affiliation. Certainly national flags have been protected. Having arms with in arms is very common in German city arms, especially those derived from seals. Often they have a knight with his shield, or a castle with the shield in the gates, or a seated lord with his shield next to him. Sometimes there is a flag with or instead of the shield.

I have also seen a lot of flags or shields with Argent, a cross Gules, obviously, most of these are St. George and it is also carried by Agnus Dei. I have also seen solid colour flags which are possibly meant to be generic.

As far as does putting a symbol on a shield or flag create a new coat of arms? I am not sure. I mean, badges are often put on shields, and I doubt the College would grant Sable, three Ostrich feathers Argent. I think definitely, putting a symbol on a flag creates a new flag. Not that it creates an exclusive right to that flag.