The Queen's Seals

[Arthur Radburn]

As today is Queen Elizabeth II's birthday, it seems appropriate to look at some of her great seals, past and present.

From the past : her great seal as Queen of South Africa (until 1961), displaying the (then) South African arms on the reverse :


From the present : her great seals

... as Queen of Canada, displaying the Canadian arms :


... as Queen of Australia, displaying the Australian arms* :


... as Queen of New Zealand, displaying the New Zealand arms :


... and as Queen of the United Kingdom, displaying the UK arms on the reverse :


* But the governor-general who represents her flies an official flag displaying the crest of the UK arms, not the Australian arms.

[JMcMillan]

Very nice.

I'd add that her original great seal in right of the UK (1953-2001) did not have the large emblazonment of the royal arms on the reverse, but the traditional royal effigy on horseback.

[JMcMillan]

Also, the great seal for Scotland:

[J Duncan of Sketraw]

Surely its the Great Seal of England, Wales and Nth. Ireland and not the Great Seal of the United Kingdom/Great Britain. Her Majesty has her own Great Seal of Scotland as depicted above.

[JMcMillan]

No, it actually is the Great Seal of the United Kingdom. It's used on instruments of ratification of treaties to which the UK is a party, royal proclamations, letters patent creating peers of the UK and appointing officers and officials of the UK, writs of election for Parliament, and all sorts of other instruments with UK-wide application.

[Kathy McClurg]

From the British Monarchy's site: It's the Great Seal of the Realm - and there are separate seals for Scotland and Northern Ireland. So, I don't see it being referenced as the Great Seal of the United Kingdom:

http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/Greatsealoftherealm.aspx

Some of the use of the Great Seal of Scotland:

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/help/66524.aspx

All I could find on the Great Seal of Norther Ireland was the wikki page which states:

Judges of the High Court of Northern Ireland, Lords Justice of Appeal and the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland are appointed by Her Majesty by letters patent under the Great Seal of Northern Ireland.[2]
Royal Assent to Bills of the Northern Ireland Assembly are signified by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of Northern Ireland.

And a nice little movie on the Great Seal (of England) because it talks about the history:

http://www.explore-parliament.net/playMovie.htm?nssMovieName=0889

So, it appears, there are several Seals: The Great Seal of the Realm, The Great Seal of Scotland, and the Great Seal of Northern Ireland. Each used for equivalent purpose or nearly equivalent purpose in each part of the United Kingdom.

It may be semantics, but there doesn't appear to currently be a "Great Seal of the United Kingdom", but there is a Great Seal of the Realm.

[JMcMillan]

"The realm" is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Queen uses the seal in question as Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It's even inscribed around the edge.

If a French, a German, and an Italian website each referred to the grand sceau de la République, the Großes Bundessiegel, and the sigillo dello Stato, would you be arguing that each of those terms meant something other than the Great Seal of the French Republic, the Great Federal Seal of the Federal Republic of Germany, and the Seal of the State of the Italian Republic?

It is simply incorrect that the "Great Seal of the Realm" and the Scottish, Northern Irish, and Welsh seals are used for equivalent purposes in different parts of the UK. The Scottish, Northern Irish, and Welsh seals are used solely for defined matters specific to those places. The Great Seal of the Realm is used for all purposes concerned with the United Kingdom as a whole, both domestically and internationally.

[Kathy McClurg]

Joe,

We are discussing the Great Seals and their use in the UK. Your second paragraph is irrelevant and merely diversionary. You're welcome to provide references from government run web sites or specific recent doctrine. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

You may note that the inscription on the Great Seal of the Realm is equivalent of the Great Seal of Scotland -- So, The inscription doesn't seem to be the determining factor nor does it mention United Kingdom, Great Briton, or Northern Ireland. It does however mention the Britons and the Commonwealth (on both the Great Seal of the Realm and the Great Seal of Scotland).

Elizabeth Secunda Dei Gratia Britanniarum Regnorumque Suorum Ceterorum Regina Consortionis Populorum Princeps Fidei Defensor

[JMcMillan]

I tried to delete my comment about the inscription last night and the computer kept acting up. I was wrong about that.

But I'm not wrong when I say that what is called the "Great Seal of the Realm" is the great seal of the entire realm of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not just a part of it, while the seals of Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales are used only in connection with the internal matters of those components of the Realm.

The difference in stature between the one, single GSR and all the others is reflected in the legal designation of the Scottish seal. It is not, officially, the Great Seal of Scotland but rather "the seal appointed by the Treaty of Union to be kept and made use of in place of the Great Seal of Scotland" (Scotland Act 1998, the law that created the devolved assembly and administration for Scotland). At the 1707 Treaty of Union, what used to be the Great Seal of the Realm [of England] became the sole great seal of the realm of Great Britain (England [including Wales] + Scotland). It still is, the "realm" having become the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801 and now the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[Kathy McClurg]

Joe,

I don't have time this minute, but last night as I was researching, there was information that when a law is passed in Scotland, the document is sent to Buckingham Palace for the Queens Signature then returned to Scotland for the placement of the Great Seal of Scotland on the document. It appears to be similar for each location in the UK which has a Great Seal. (I did limit myself to government sites in this). I also checked the site related to Treaties for the UK. There is no mention of any Great Seal involved in their processes - it appeared the PM signs international treaties.

Remembering that the locations we are discussing are not like the states in that the Monarch has separate legal identities and titles as Monarch.

Personally, I'd like to hear from some of our members within the UK on this issue.

Perhaps I will get back to this tonight. (some of us still just dreaming about retirement )