Lyon Morrow on Youtube

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Arthur Radburn
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Lyon Morrow on Youtube

Postby Arthur Radburn » 06 Nov 2019, 20:34

Lyon Morrow.jpg
If you've got an hour and a half to devote to Scots heraldry, you might like to watch these videos featuring Lord Lyon Morrow :

* Video presentation, followed by Q & A session, at the Scottish North American Leadership Conference held in Detroit USA last month (57 minutes) -- this is very informative, giving insights into Lyon Morrow's views and policies, including the
- modernisation ("renewal") of Scots heraldry,
- grant of non-hereditary "lifetime arms" (which we discussed a couple of years ago),
- proposed digitisation of Lyon Office records, to be made freely available online,
- appointment of clan chiefs and commanders;

* After-luncheon speech at a Scottish Australian Heritage Council function this past June (30 minutes) -- including comments (the last five minutes or so of the speech) about feudal barons and the purchase of "souvenir plots";

* Presentation of LPs to Ronnie Watt this past May (3 minutes).
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Chris Green
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Re: Lyon Morrow on Youtube

Postby Chris Green » 07 Nov 2019, 11:17

At about 56 minutes LL defends "lifetime arms" (well he would wouldn't he, since he and he alone invented the concept). The fact that he considers himself within his rights to overturn the fundamental principal of heraldry which has been unquestioned for nearly 900 years that arms are heritable speaks volumes for his hubris. Of course he can do it. He is uniquely capable of doing so legally, since he and only he can create legal precedents in Scottish heraldry.

But should he do it? Some would say that it is better to do so than have Americans assume arms. Yeees. But that is their right, since they are not under the jurisdiction of LL or any other judicial authority. By granting "lifetime arms" LL is in effect purporting to restrict the right of Americans to inherit the "lifetime arms" granted to their fathers. What happens if they do so anyway? Will LL pronounce an anathema on them? What happens if the descendants of someone granted "lifetime arms" seek LL's approval to have them matriculated as their own? Will he refuse?

Methinks Dr M has opened a can-o-worms proper.
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Kurt Alex
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Re: Lyon Morrow on Youtube

Postby Kurt Alex » 07 Nov 2019, 17:00

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Re: Lyon Morrow on Youtube

Postby JMcMillan » 07 Nov 2019, 20:13

And another can of worms: can this man possibly take his role as a judge seriously if he doesn't take seriously the rulings of his country's highest court on the bounds of his own authority? He states flatly and unambiguously that he as Lord Lyon appoints clan chiefs, in direct contradiction to repeatedly rulings by the Inner House of the Court of Session that:

(a) Lyon's powers are defined by law (statute, precedents of higher courts, the writings of the so-called "institutional writers" on Scottish law, and "immemorial" practice of the office--"immemorial" meaning that there is no time on record when a particular power was not exercised by the office; and

(b) These powers explicitly do not include that of determining chiefship of a clan, let alone "appointing" the chief. He may advise, he may mediate. And of course he has the power to confirm to whomever he deems appropriate the undifferenced arms pertaining to a particular lineage, which may considered an implicit recognition of the chiefship. But he doesn't have the power to decide who, among various contenders, is the chief. Maclean of Ardgour v. Maclean, https://heraldica.org/topics/britain/ly ... %20Ardgour
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Re: Lyon Morrow on Youtube

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 08 Nov 2019, 16:32

Ahhh but didn't you know, a great many people believe that the Lord Lyon is the Great Panjandrum and he probably doesn't feel like disabusing them. Plus, according to a recent ruling in the Court of Session, as long as Lyon states that he is exercising the Royal Prerogative, he can jolly well do as he pleases (tongue in cheek for this last comment but it certainly seems as though he can).

The concept of anyone accepting "Lifetime Arms" is just silly and the thought that an American should feel that his tenuous connection with Scotland overrides his inherent right to assume inheritable arms of his own volition without needing anyone's permission to do so is, to me at least, an unfathomable concept. I find this quite distasteful simply because, in my humble opinion, the new "second class armiger" is submitting to the dominance of a foreign authority and valuing something which is not whole above something which is whole and which he has a right to freely assume in his own country. Completely unfathomable if not bonkers.
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Re: Lyon Morrow on Youtube

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 08 Nov 2019, 20:42

Further to my last "observations", I also notice that in one of the videos, Lyon Morrow makes the (misleading) observation that a grant of Scots arms is better value than a grant from the College of Arms. He conveniently forgets that a grant of Scots arms, cheaper though it may be, is only to one man and can only be inherited by one heir and no more; thus, at any one point in time throughout the entire future survival of the arms, for that one fee, there will be two people entitled to use the arms, a man and his son (or grandson). If any other male descendants of any younger son wishes to become armigerous, he and every other younger son of every younger son, must put his hand in his pocket for a matriculation.

Whereas with a grant from the College of Arms, even though it is more expensive, every single male descendant for as long as there are male descendants, is automatically armigerous and no more money will ever have to be parted with.

The sheer economics of this means that a grant from the College of Arms is actually, in the long run, far better value. If we were to complete an exercise in Scotland where a man had a grant of arms and he had three sons and each of his sons had two and each of them had two sons and each one was to become armigerous then over four generations the Scots would have to pay for (I've lost count but you get the gist ) many, many matriculations.

In England, nothing more has to be paid and all descendants are armigerous.

The Lord Lyon has quite a lucrative line in repeat business!
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Re: Lyon Morrow on Youtube

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 11 Nov 2019, 23:14

I'm looking forward to viewing/hearing LL Morrow's presentations, which I'm sure will be interesting and informative. But in the meantime, let me defend his claim that his grants are a better deal than those of his competitors to the South - though he may not care for my reasoning!

First, I'm addressing his claim from this side of the Atlantic, where Lyon's writ doesn't run. And second, my argument appliesl to both regular heritable grants, and the new 'lifetime" grants.

An American who obtains a grant from Lyon (or any foreign herald) of course enjoys whatever benefits and protections the granting government affords - within the legal jurisdiction of the granting government. Outside that foreign legal jurisdiction, any
grantee enjoys only whatever benefits and protections his own government chooses to afford - which in the US, is essentially zero, beyond perhaps copyright of the particular artwork and/or trademark protection if the arms are used as a trademark. In essence, the same limited benefits and protection that might apply to an emblazonment of assumed arms. In that regard, Lyon and Garter are no different from each other, or to any DIY assumption. Lyon is less expensive than Garter - but more expensive than most heraldic artists working on commission.

As for the cost of successive matriculations by junior cadets - a valid concern in Scotland - the Scottish legal requirement to practice cadency within the same family doesn't apply in the US. Here, cadency is optional, and most Americans don't bother with it. Once new arms are used here, whatever the source, they become assumed American arms; and unless a family or an individual descendant decides they/he want to difference the arms, the descend equally to all. And even if a family or individual descendant does want to practice cadency, they are free to DIY since no foreign herald has any legal jurisdiction or authority outside his own country.

As to "lifetime" grants, that's a uniquely Scottish thing. Once an American grantee assumes those arms here, by using them here, the Scottish lifetime restriction becomes as irrelevant as the Scottish requirement for cadets to matriculate.

Of course if an American has assumed (by use here) arms granted to him by a foreign jurisdiction, and then visits or moves to that same jurisdiction, the local rules there will apply. Other than that, the foreign rules are of academic interest but no more.

(Those very few Americ who may have inherited a special status - e.g. Chief of a Scottish clan, or a Baronetcy - may well choose to matroculsye to preserve that foreign status, which has no recognozed counterpart in the US Ditto their own siblings or cousins, to avoid duplicating their Chief's arms - though they could simply DIY, preferably using some different type of cadency to avoid future duplication within their clan. But these concerns are quite rate here!)

Off to dinner...
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Re: Lyon Morrow on Youtube

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 12 Nov 2019, 10:04

Michael F. McCartney wrote:let me defend his claim that his grants are a better deal than those of his competitors to the South - though he may not care for my reasoning!


If this is Lyon's defence, It doesn't really do him any favours.

Michael F. McCartney wrote:
As for the cost of successive matriculations by junior cadets - a valid concern in Scotland - the Scottish legal requirement to practice cadency within the same family doesn't apply in the US. Here, cadency is optional, and most Americans don't bother with it. Once new arms are used here, whatever the source, they become assumed American arms; and unless a family or an individual descendant decides they/he want to difference the arms, the descend equally to all. And even if a family or individual descendant does want to practice cadency, they are free to DIY since no foreign herald has any legal jurisdiction or authority outside his own country.


Agreed however, should a future cadet, who has taken the route of differencing the Scottish arms (or not differencing them) according to whim as he would be able to do in the USA, wish to matriculate in Scotland, he would of course have to accept whatever Lyon threw at him. I suspect that we don't disagree over any of this.

Michael F. McCartney wrote:As to "lifetime" grants, that's a uniquely Scottish thing. Once an American grantee assumes those arms here, by using them here, the Scottish lifetime restriction becomes as irrelevant as the Scottish requirement for cadets to matriculate.

Of course if an American has assumed (by use here) arms granted to him by a foreign jurisdiction, and then visits or moves to that same jurisdiction, the local rules there will apply. Other than that, the foreign rules are of academic interest but no more.

(Those very few Americ who may have inherited a special status - e.g. Chief of a Scottish clan, or a Baronetcy - may well choose to matroculsye to preserve that foreign status, which has no recognozed counterpart in the US Ditto their own siblings or cousins, to avoid duplicating their Chief's arms - though they could simply DIY, preferably using some different type of cadency to avoid future duplication within their clan. But these concerns are quite rate here!)

Off to dinner...


All agreed - but I can't see it as being much of a defence (or advertisement) for the "benefits" of either a Scottish Grant substantial or lifetime. I think we're probably in agreement that neither of us can really see the benefit of a foreign grant to a US citizen whether its Scots or English (or anywhere else).
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Re: Lyon Morrow on Youtube

Postby Stephen J F Plowman » 12 Nov 2019, 14:32

Martin Goldstraw wrote:Further to my last "observations", I also notice that in one of the videos, Lyon Morrow makes the (misleading) observation that a grant of Scots arms is better value than a grant from the College of Arms.


It is true that the "basic" Grant/Matriculation from Lord Lyon is less expensive than that granted by the College of Arms. However, it if you want the same level of artwork additional fees are payable. There is a leaflet that breaks down the fee for each item (I do not have a copy to hand regrettably).
Last edited by Stephen J F Plowman on 14 Nov 2019, 13:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lyon Morrow on Youtube

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 13 Nov 2019, 07:39

.
Last edited by Michael F. McCartney on 13 Nov 2019, 08:02, edited 1 time in total.
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