KMM Conquest : "lifetime arms"

Scottish Heraldry
Ryan Shuflin
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Joined: 26 Jul 2012, 13:00
Location: Germany

Re: KMM Conquest : "lifetime arms"

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 12 Sep 2018, 16:54

That doesn't make sense. I fail to see the logic that Mr. Conquest falls under the jurisdiction, but his heirs don't. What if his heirs were Scottish?

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Chris Green
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Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: KMM Conquest : "lifetime arms"

Postby Chris Green » 12 Sep 2018, 17:53

Ryan Shuflin wrote:That doesn't make sense. I fail to see the logic that Mr. Conquest falls under the jurisdiction, but his heirs don't. What if his heirs were Scottish?


Mr Conquest clearly does not fall under the jurisdiction of Lord Lyon. As I said earlier. LL is making up new rules "on the hoof".
Chris Green
IAAH President

Bertilak de Hautdesert

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: KMM Conquest : "lifetime arms"

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 13 Sep 2018, 08:30

By our (American) standards, once Mr Conquest uses these arms in the US as his personal arms, regardless of where he got them, they become the arms of his descendants bearing his surname.

Of course that wouldn't give them any heraldic rights in Scotland; but neither would Lyon's (to me nonsensical) limited grant trump actual real use here.

At least that's how it looks to me!
Michael F. McCartney
Fremont, California

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: KMM Conquest : "lifetime arms"

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 13 Sep 2018, 08:34

By our (American) standards, once Mr Conquest uses these arms in the US as his personal arms, regardless of where he got them, they become the arms of his descendants bearing his surname.

Of course that wouldn't give them any heraldic rights in Scotland; but neither would Lyon's (to me nonsensical) limited grant trump actual real use here.

At least that's how it looks to me!
Michael F. McCartney
Fremont, California

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Chris Green
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Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: KMM Conquest : "lifetime arms"

Postby Chris Green » 13 Sep 2018, 17:23

Michael F. McCartney wrote:By our (American) standards, once Mr Conquest uses these arms in the US as his personal arms, regardless of where he got them, they become the arms of his descendants bearing his surname.

Of course that wouldn't give them any heraldic rights in Scotland; but neither would Lyon's (to me nonsensical) limited grant trump actual real use here.

At least that's how it looks to me!


I agree entirely. LL's innovation is meaningless. The only advantage to Mr C is that he gets a fancy document to put on the wall.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Bertilak de Hautdesert

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JMcMillan
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Location: United States

Re: KMM Conquest : "lifetime arms"

Postby JMcMillan » 13 Sep 2018, 18:35

Chris Green wrote:I agree entirely. LL's innovation is meaningless.


And absurd. Lyon is ultimately free to define his own granting jurisdiction, but not to redefine the nature of arms themselves.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

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Michael F. McCartney
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Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 23:34

Re: KMM Conquest : "lifetime arms"

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 17 Sep 2018, 08:25

Ditto. And even if he does have that right within his own jurisdiction, it wouldn't be extraterritorial.

Seems to me that all it really means is that Lyon (or at least this Lyon - who knows about the future?) wouldn't matriculate for heirs. But a Scottish armiger outside of Scotland, or his heirs also outside of Scotland, are only legally subject to the Heraldic rules (or customs, if not legally regulated) of their own domicile -- just as an armigerous foreigner who moves to Scotland is subject to Lyon's jurisdiction, which trumps (in Scotland) the rules in the former domicile.
Michael F. McCartney
Fremont, California


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