The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Scottish Heraldry
Jonathan Webster
Posts: 279
Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 21:47
Location: United Kingdom

The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Jonathan Webster » 02 Jul 2014, 14:23

According to 'Scots Heraldry' by Thomas Innes of Learney, these arms:

[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Coat_of_Arms_of_the_Duke_of_Rothesay.svg/650px-Coat_of_Arms_of_the_Duke_of_Rothesay.svg.png[\img]

are borne by the Prince of Wales (in his role as Duke of Rothesay) in right of Scotland, (being designed in part by the heraldic writer Sir Iain Moncrieffe of that Ilk, Bt), being registered in the Lyon registry in 1974.

I was aware of there being a banner of these arms for use by His Royal Highness, but was very surprised (as well as pleased) to see he has 'Scottish' Arms, like his mother does in right of Scotland too (and as every British monarch has since 1603)

Does anyone have any more information regarding these arms?

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2684
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Chris Green » 02 Jul 2014, 15:59

Your link didn't work Jonathan!

Image

Wiki seems to have the answer:

The personal arms of the current Duke were bestowed upon him in 1974 by HM The Queen. The escutcheon is based upon that of the Chief of Clan Stewart of Appin; which feature on the 1st and 4th quarters the arms of the Great Steward of Scotland, with the 2nd and 3rd quarters featuring the arms of the Lord of the Isles. The arms of current Duke are distinguished from those of Appin through the addition of an inescutcheon displaying the arms of the heir apparent to the King of Scots, namely the Royal arms of Scotland with a three point label. The full achievement of the current Duke's arms are a variation of the Royal coat of arms of Scotland used prior to the Union of the Crowns in 1603.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

Jonathan Webster
Posts: 279
Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 21:47
Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Jonathan Webster » 02 Jul 2014, 17:56

Perhaps worth noting that arms 'in right of Scotland' have not been registered for other members of the royal family. I would have thought this would have been done at least for the Duke of Cambridge.

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2684
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Chris Green » 02 Jul 2014, 20:38

This is the Duke of Cambridge's standard as used in Scotland. Ergo those are his arms for Scotland.

Image
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

Jonathan Webster
Posts: 279
Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 21:47
Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Jonathan Webster » 02 Jul 2014, 22:12

Thanks for that Chris :)

What is the source for the above banner?

Ryan Shuflin
Posts: 487
Joined: 26 Jul 2012, 13:00
Location: Germany

Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 06 Jul 2014, 04:58

Could they really be considered based on the arms of Stewart of Appin? I think they just happen to look alike. The Appin arms are Stewart quartered with Lorne, whereas the Duke of Rothesay's arms are Stewart quartered with the dominion of the Isles. As far as I know they could have made choices to make it more different, as well as represented the earldom of Carrick.

User avatar
GSelvester
Posts: 83
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 23:01
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby GSelvester » 06 Jul 2014, 05:02

Chris Green wrote:This is the Duke of Cambridge's standard as used in Scotland.


You mean the Earl of Strathearn. North of the border he isn't called the Duke of Cambridge.

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2684
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Chris Green » 06 Jul 2014, 06:58

You mean the Earl of Strathearn. North of the border he isn't called the Duke of Cambridge.


Here we enter into the murky world of semantics.

My logic is thus: 1) I am an Englishman; to me Prince William is Duke of Cambridge; 2) I am not in Scotland; 3) most IAAH members are not Scots, nor do they live in Scotland. Moreover, whether or not Prince William has a Scottish title and may be known by it within Scotland, he is still Duke of Cambridge wherever he may be, unless one is prepared to defend the notion that he becomes plain Mr when he is in the US or elsewhere where royal titles do not exist. Ergo "This is the Duke of Cambridge's standard as used in Scotland" is the sentence that is most readily understandable to most people and is not factually incorrect.

To be absolutely accurate, I could have written: "This is the standard used in Scotland by the Duke of Cambridge, where he is known as Earl of Strathearn", or perhaps: "This is the standard used in Scotland by the Earl of Strathearn, better known to non-Scots as the Duke of Cambridge". I am afraid I didn't.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
JMcMillan
Posts: 548
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 22:33
Location: United States

Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby JMcMillan » 06 Jul 2014, 12:59

Ryan is correct. The first and fourth quarters are Stewart/Stuart, not "of Appin," and not "based on" that of the clan chief because (a) the Stewarts from whom the royal family descends were never a clan, except in the minds of Sir Walter Scott and Thomas Innes of Learney, and (b) were never "of" or even from Appin. The Appin Stewarts are a junior and now very distant cadet branch, their founder and the founder of the royal house having been first cousins who lived 500+ years ago.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

Ryan Shuflin
Posts: 487
Joined: 26 Jul 2012, 13:00
Location: Germany

Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 07 Jul 2014, 04:59

GSelvester wrote:
Chris Green wrote:This is the Duke of Cambridge's standard as used in Scotland.


You mean the Earl of Strathearn. North of the border he isn't called the Duke of Cambridge.


I thought that dual naming only applied to the Prince of Wales/Duke of Rothesay and by extension his wife?

JMcMillan wrote:Ryan is correct. The first and fourth quarters are Stewart/Stuart, not "of Appin," and not "based on" that of the clan chief because (a) the Stewarts from whom the royal family descends were never a clan, except in the minds of Sir Walter Scott and Thomas Innes of Learney, and (b) were never "of" or even from Appin. The Appin Stewarts are a junior and now very distant cadet branch, their founder and the founder of the royal house having been first cousins who lived 500+ years ago.


There have not been any Royal Stewarts for quite some time now. I do believe it is possible, but unproven that the chief of Appin is the senior legitimate descendant of the High Stewards of Scotland. As HRH the Duke of Rothesay does not claim to be a Stewart, or have a significant relation to Appin. I would really like to know what the line of thought that went into devising the arms. The Stewart quarter could represent the Barony of Renfrew or the High Stewartship of Scotland.


Return to “Court of the Lord Lyon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest