The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Scottish Heraldry
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Chris Green
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Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Chris Green » 10 Jul 2014, 14:17

Empress/emperor is generally regarded as a higher title than queen/king, yet Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII, and George VI were normally referred to within the UK by the lower title.


They were Emperors/Empress of India. But although we speak of the British Empire, no-one was ever Emperor/Empress of the whole. Queen Victoria's titles from the date she became Empress of India were: "Her Majesty Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Queen, Defender of the Faith, Empress of India".
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JMcMillan
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Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby JMcMillan » 10 Jul 2014, 20:23

Chris Green wrote:
Empress/emperor is generally regarded as a higher title than queen/king, yet Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII, and George VI were normally referred to within the UK by the lower title.


They were Emperors/Empress of India. But although we speak of the British Empire, no-one was ever Emperor/Empress of the whole. Queen Victoria's titles from the date she became Empress of India were: "Her Majesty Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Queen, Defender of the Faith, Empress of India".


Exactly my point. If, as Ryan asserted, "a person is known by their highest title, no matter where they are," then Victoria would have been referred to as empress rather than queen, no matter where she was. But she wasn't, just as the Duke of Wellington is not known in England or most other places as Prins van Waterloo.
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Ton de Witte
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Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Ton de Witte » 11 Jul 2014, 08:23

not even in the Netherlands, overhere he is usually refered to as: de Hertog (Duke) van Wellington. In the Dutch nobility the title prince outranks a duke.
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Ryan Shuflin
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Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 11 Jul 2014, 20:48

JMcMillan wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
Empress/emperor is generally regarded as a higher title than queen/king, yet Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII, and George VI were normally referred to within the UK by the lower title.


They were Emperors/Empress of India. But although we speak of the British Empire, no-one was ever Emperor/Empress of the whole. Queen Victoria's titles from the date she became Empress of India were: "Her Majesty Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Queen, Defender of the Faith, Empress of India".


Exactly my point. If, as Ryan asserted, "a person is known by their highest title, no matter where they are," then Victoria would have been referred to as empress rather than queen, no matter where she was. But she wasn't, just as the Duke of Wellington is not known in England or most other places as Prins van Waterloo.


Here is what I actually asserted, emphasis added:
Ryan Shuflin wrote:Traditionally, a person is known by their highest title, no matter where they are. There are exceptions


Ton de Witte wrote:not even in the Netherlands, overhere he is usually refered to as: de Hertog (Duke) van Wellington. In the Dutch nobility the title prince outranks a duke.


I believe very few people are actually referred to by different names based on location, especially in common usage. For example: I believe Irish Peers who also hold a lower title that allows them to sit in the House of Lords, are known by their Irish title in England in social situations, but are summoned to the House of Lords by the title that allows them to sit there.

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J. Carchrie Campbell
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Re: The Arms of the Duke of Rothesay

Postby J. Carchrie Campbell » 23 Oct 2014, 21:49

Ryan Shuflin wrote:I believe very few people are actually referred to by different names based on location, especially in common usage. For example: I believe Irish Peers who also hold a lower title that allows them to sit in the House of Lords, are known by their Irish title in England in social situations, but are summoned to the House of Lords by the title that allows them to sit there.


I believe that not only were they summoned to the House of Lords by the lower title, once there they were referred to by their higher title. For instance: His Grace The Duke of Abercorn (in the Peerage of Ireland) was summoned to sit as Viscount Hamilton (in the peerage of Great Britain) but was always known and referred to as His Grace The Duke of Abercorn.

On an aside, I once sat next to His Grace on an aeroplane where the air stewards kept calling him ‘Sir’ but when I needed past to go to the WC I said ‘Your Grace’. This prompted an interesting conversation on my return. Suffice to say that an early interest in heraldry had helped me to identify the man sitting next to me - via the letter A and a Ducal coronet!
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