Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Scottish Heraldry
User avatar
Arthur Radburn
Posts: 818
Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 09:56
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Postby Arthur Radburn » 07 Sep 2015, 12:21

From Lord Lyon's twitter page : the arms granted to Sir Robert Menzies KT, prime minister of Australia, in 1965 :

Image

The banner held by the dexter supporter is shown from the back, but the arms on it are depicted as they would appear from the front, with the result that the boars' head face away from the flagstaff.
Regards
Arthur Radburn
IAAH Vice-President : Heraldic Education

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2773
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Postby Chris Green » 07 Sep 2015, 13:27

The banner held by the dexter supporter is shown from the back, but the arms on it are depicted as they would appear from the front, with the result that the boars' head face away from the flagstaff.


For a real banner to look like that it would need to be of double thickness, otherwise the front would show through in reverse on the back. This picture of Garter banners seems to suggest that both methods have been used. There are lions rampant and passant and lions heads facing sinister, suggesting that the back is the front showing through. But the globe is shown correctly, suggesting that the front is replicated on the back.

Image

These Thistle banners are all single thickness. The quality of the Garter banners is apparently markedly superior to those of the Order of the Thistle.

Image

It would be interesting to know what Sir R Menzies' actual Thistle banner looked like.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
Arthur Radburn
Posts: 818
Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 09:56
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Re: Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Postby Arthur Radburn » 07 Sep 2015, 15:00

Chris Green wrote:These Thistle banners are all single thickness. The quality of the Garter banners is apparently markedly superior to those of the Order of the Thistle.

It would be interesting to know what Sir R Menzies' actual Thistle banner looked like.

There's a photo of it here : https://www.facebook.com/simon.frame/po ... 4140425652 . It appears to be single thickness. That would explain why the banner held by the supporter is depicted the way it is.

To judge from the photos, another difference between Garter and Thistle banners is that the former have fringes and the latter do not.
Regards
Arthur Radburn
IAAH Vice-President : Heraldic Education

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2773
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Postby Chris Green » 07 Sep 2015, 15:47

I am no expert in cloth (no expert in many things!), but to me the Garter banners look like silk, and embroidered, whereas the Thistle banners look printed, though whether silk or not I cannot say.

PS: We now know that the picture of Garter banners is in fact of banners of the Order of the Bath in Westminster Abbey.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
Arthur Radburn
Posts: 818
Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 09:56
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Re: Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Postby Arthur Radburn » 07 Sep 2015, 18:31

Arthur Radburn wrote:It appears to be single thickness. That would explain why the banner held by the supporter is depicted the way it is.
Oops! For the banner to be the way it is depicted in Sir Roberts' arms, it would have had to be double-sided. If it were single-sided, with the design showing through from front to back, the design would be reversed. So -- a double-sided banner in his arms, and a single-sided one in the chapel.
Regards
Arthur Radburn
IAAH Vice-President : Heraldic Education

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2773
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Postby Chris Green » 08 Sep 2015, 16:20

For the banner to be the way it is depicted in Sir Roberts' arms, it would have had to be double-sided. If it were single-sided, with the design showing through from front to back, the design would be reversed. So -- a double-sided banner in his arms, and a single-sided one in the chapel.


Absolutely right. The artist who depicted Sir R Menzies' arms was in error. That such an error should have been perpetrated by Lord Lyon's Office is eye-brow raising. Someone may have paid good money for that.

Incidentally, nearly all double thickness banners show the arms reversed on the back.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

Ryan Shuflin
Posts: 507
Joined: 26 Jul 2012, 13:00
Location: Germany

Re: Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 10 Sep 2015, 12:52

Why does the kangaroo need a banner anyway? I think the picture could be more balanced with out it. And does anyone know the reason for the plumes? A bit Karnevalish?

User avatar
Michael F. McCartney
Posts: 332
Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 23:34

Re: Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Postby Michael F. McCartney » 21 Sep 2015, 07:24

Ditto Chris's 9/8 posting -- the banner is backwards! My guess is that the artist (painter) didn't know better, and either no one caught it or it was ignored as too bothersome to repaint. But as noted, just my guess...
Michael F. McCartney
Fremont, California

Marcus Karlsson
Posts: 950
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 08:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 21 Sep 2015, 18:20

Sir Robert Menzies was also made a Knight of the Order of Australia in 1976, so he was also entitled the postnominal AK. The grade of Knight/Dame of the Order of Australia was dormant 3 March 1986 to 25 March 2014. Following the ousting of Primeminister Tony Abbott by Malcolm Turnbull it appears the the Knight/Dame Grade is one more to become dormant.

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2773
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Sir Robert Menzies' arms

Postby Chris Green » 21 Sep 2015, 18:47

Are Knights of the Order of Australia entitled to supporters like KGs KTs and Grand Crosses?
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton


Return to “Court of the Lord Lyon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest