Foresythe

Heraldry in the Republic of Ireland
Charles Melebeck
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Foresythe

Postby Charles Melebeck » 02 Sep 2014, 13:17

Hello,

I am trying to find informations about Foresythe noble family's coats of arms and history. They used to be irish barons and one branch of the family moved to the surroundings of London. Some more information about them? Thank you! :)

Charles

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Chris Green
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Re: Foresythe

Postby Chris Green » 02 Sep 2014, 15:29

A (very) quick search reveals no evidence of an Irish noble or knightly family of the name Foresythe or Forsyth/Forsyt. Where did you find this information?

There is of course a Scottish clan with that name, but with no obvious Irish connection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Forsyth
Chris Green
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Charles Melebeck
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Re: Foresythe

Postby Charles Melebeck » 02 Sep 2014, 16:10

That's a friend of mine whose mother belongs to this family, but they have quite no clue about their family history! They have been bearing, for several generations, coat of arms with griffins and they just think they are linked to Ireland, but no certitude. I once saw the drawing, it was quite the same as on the internet while looking for the name on genealogical sites. The only think they are quite certain about is having a family branch around London. I spoked about a baron title because, when I first looked for informations, I found their very coat of arms covered by a baron mantle and hat, but I know nothing more actually. Is this mantle a scottish feudal baron one? No idea, I just guess. I have been trying to obtain a picture of those arms, but it takes a while I am afraid... I will do my best to as soon as possible!

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JMcMillan
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Re: Foresythe

Postby JMcMillan » 03 Sep 2014, 04:21

The various Scottish Forsyth families bear arms with griffins (Forsyth of that Ilk bears Argent a chevron engrailed Gules between three griffins segreant Azure). It's quite likely that at least some Scottish Forsyths who had arms settled in Ireland, but if so it's not clear that they ever had the arms recorded there. At least, Stephen Plowman's "one name armorial" for Forsyth shows no Irish records; see http://www.heraldry-online.org.uk/forsyth.html.

There's no evidence I can find that any Forsyth has ever been noble in the British or Irish legal sense of holding a peerage title, including baron. Some of the Scottish Forsyths may well have owned Scottish feudal baronies, but that's a different matter. There are no Irish feudal baronies and haven't been since 1662.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

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JMcMillan
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Re: Foresythe

Postby JMcMillan » 03 Sep 2014, 04:25

Charles, are you sure you're not confusing simple red and white mantling (lambrequin, attached to the helmet) with a mantle, or robe of estate? Very different things. The basic Forsyth arms, because of their silver field and red ordinary, would naturally take red and white mantling. It has nothing to do with noble rank.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

Charles Melebeck
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Re: Foresythe

Postby Charles Melebeck » 03 Sep 2014, 09:32

Thank you for all these infos! Actually I don't know, you are perhaps perfectly right. I have had a look at my friend's arms as a belgian amateur, not being carefull with the differences between heraldic systems. Great mistake, I know and apologize;).
Could you please explain me two things? First: is a feudal barony title equivalent with what is called gentry? Second: What is an estate mantle? In Belgium, when a mantle is borne, it means that the family was once sovereign on an estate, or that she was granted a high hereditary peerage title such as prince or duke. Both situations being quite often linked.

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Chris Green
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Re: Foresythe

Postby Chris Green » 03 Sep 2014, 10:38

As ever, the quick answer lies in Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barons_in_Scotland

One of our Scots members will no doubt tell you if it is accurate (and I hope correct the entry if it isn't!).

Look at the section entitled "Feudo-baronial mantle" for an explanation of the Scottish version of the mantle.
Chris Green
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Charles Melebeck
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Re: Foresythe

Postby Charles Melebeck » 03 Sep 2014, 11:42

Thank you. I also so think the best thing I could do in short term perspective should be trying to pass the examinations organised by IAAH, it might be a good starting point ;)
I will show you the drawing I have been talking about since the biginning of this conversation as soon as I get it.

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Chris Green
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Re: Foresythe

Postby Chris Green » 03 Sep 2014, 14:18

... the best thing I could do in short term perspective should be trying to pass the examinations organised by IAAH ...


Good. You should lay hands on a copy of Boutell's book if you do not already have one.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Boutells-Heraldry-Brooke-Little-J-P/dp/B000VOJ6NW/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1409750183&sr=1-7&keywords=boutell%27s+heraldry
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JMcMillan
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Re: Foresythe

Postby JMcMillan » 03 Sep 2014, 14:50

I don't think the Belgian system is terribly different from the Scottish or Irish in this regard.

This is a painting of the arms of the Comte de Radigues de Chenneviere by the eminent Belgian heraldic artist Fernand Brose, with a mantle (manteau):

Image

This is another painting by the same artist with mantling on the helm (lambrequin) and no mantle:

Image

I can find many images of Forsyth arms with mantling, but have not found one with a mantle.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA


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